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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans Rights: There's little point in arguing facts. This is not about facts.

153 replies

BiPsychle · 24/06/2020 21:45

My background is in psychoanalysis and psychodynamic theory, and while, granted, to every person with a hammer, every problem is a nail, I do believe that there's a psychoanalytic approach to the trans rights debate that explains the level of energy in perceived attacks against the TR movement, and the need to mobilise to silence any question that they are right and their opponents are wrong. And when you see it this way, you begin to understand why arguing facts is pointless and doesn't work - why no matter what logic is brought into the debate, the resistance remains, and in fact increases, along with a certain sense of hysteria.

I work regularly with clients who are in problematic relationships with others. I note often that these relationships are defined by a dynamic that is so powerful that it runs the risk of destroying everything else - namely, a "fight to the death". But a fight about what? And against what?

The fight, in one form or another, is typically an existential fight where the party is 'hooked into' their perceived opponent: they believe they are fighting for their very existence; they need a hook to hang this on to; and one of the strongest and most destructive hooks is envy.

From a psychoanalytic perspective, there are many men out there who envy women to the point of hatred. At its most extreme - and there is nothing more extreme than a dysfunctional relationship with woman, i.e. "mother" - the envy goes so deep that, theoretically, there is an unconscious desire to 'consume' the other. In this case, for someone to consume "woman". The theory goes that by becoming her, she no longer exists, the protagonist takes her place, vengeance is exacted, and pain assuaged.

In other words, this is theoretically an unconscious drive to take womanhood and motherhood over, and to have a new ruler in her place. To obliterate anything to do with woman by overlaying something that looks like her, but is a facsimile of her. This might explain why there is so much new language around reproduction and menstruation - the one thing where a man may feel that he is shut out.

I understand that to many people this is foreign. But I've lived, eaten, and breathed the world of the unconscious for years, and it has offered an enlightening perspective on several radical movements going on right now (each with a different, but linked, explanation). And I thought I'd offer it here, because I'm not political, but I am deeply interested in the motivations of a person's psyche, and well versed in subtexts that operate therein.

So: facts are irrelevant. This isn't factual. It is emotional and psychological ... and for the most part unconscious, which means it is very hard to get to, because you are attacking a person's deeply entrenched defences - and those defences are there for good reason: to hold back childhood pain and devastation. I write this final sentence as a reason, and not an excuse, for what's happening. Because another piece of the puzzle here is a prevailing inability to take responsibility for one's past, and therefore one's present actions.

Individually and collectively, we are reaping what our forebears sowed.

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BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 10:55

If you're looking for a Jungian understanding of what is going on right now, which was written by Jung in the late 50s and which is strikingly prescient (and not political as much as psychological and symbolic), then read "The Undiscovered Self".

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BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 10:58

Here is an excerpt from the opening of The Undiscovered Self:

Everywhere in the west there are subversive minorities who, sheltered by our humanitarianism hold the incendiary torches ready, with nothing to stop the spread of their ideas except the critical reason of a single, fairly intelligent mentally stable stratum of the population. One should not however overestimate the thickness of this stratum. It varies from country to country in accordance with national temperament. Also is its regionally dependent on public education and is subject to the influence of acutely disturbing factors of a political and economic nature.

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BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 11:14

Potentially controversially, I count the Black Lives Matter movement among these "subversive minorities" (note: upper case BLM, not "black lives matter"), because it is a neo-Marxist organisation.

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dayoftheclownfish · 25/06/2020 11:33

I understand where you are coming from but you could easily interpret the line ‚subversive minorities‘ in very dicey ways. Jung wrote this a decade after the Holocaust after all. There is, however, always a tension between minority group demands and what broader society deems acceptable. (Think, for example, polygamy - but who knows, this could go mainstream in future?!)

Clearly, you can’t give in to every demand but it seems to be the job of human rights and equality law now to outline which demands are legitimate and which are not.
But the point about public education is interesting - our faith in education seems a lot more shaky than it was in the Blair years.

picklemewalnuts · 25/06/2020 11:40

This is fascinating, and speaks into how I see and understand what's going on around me. By that I mean people on this thread have articulated things I see but can't pin down with words.

What do we actually do, though? How do we behave, when we understand these things (or are at least beginning to)? I can't engage in popular culture very much because of the identity politics, virtue signalling, clan claiming. I may agree with a point here and a point there but am left homeless and suspected by everyone! Which is why I love MN.

I feel as though I'm looking at a world that I can't meaningfully engage with.
What I actually do is low key local projects, building community, supporting local charities etc.

Stripesgalore · 25/06/2020 11:46

This may seem very naive, but this idea that we can’t change anyone but ourselves.

I have been hugely shaped and changed as an adult (for good and bad) in my emotional and psychological state and in my opinions and beliefs by the actions and comments of others.

There must be things we can say and do that influence other people in positive ways.

BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 11:50

@dayoftheclownfish

I understand where you are coming from but you could easily interpret the line ‚subversive minorities‘ in very dicey ways. Jung wrote this a decade after the Holocaust after all. There is, however, always a tension between minority group demands and what broader society deems acceptable. (Think, for example, polygamy - but who knows, this could go mainstream in future?!)

Clearly, you can’t give in to every demand but it seems to be the job of human rights and equality law now to outline which demands are legitimate and which are not.
But the point about public education is interesting - our faith in education seems a lot more shaky than it was in the Blair years.

Jung wrote this in response to the rise of post-WWII communism, so it was very much of its time as well. He was also a flawed man, and a product of the society he was raised and lived in. However, I think that much of what he writes about holds weight. It does for me, anyway.

What I see is a Marxist-theory-driven agenda that is very cannily infiltrating certain movements that are then driven forward under the guise of "human rights". That's the political part. The personal part is the psychology at play. They go hand in hand, and, as we can see from the targeting by TRA of anyone who disagrees with or questions their agenda, there is hell to pay if you are a dissenter ... or, rather, an apostate. It is swiftly becoming the new religion.

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BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 11:52

@picklemewalnuts

This is fascinating, and speaks into how I see and understand what's going on around me. By that I mean people on this thread have articulated things I see but can't pin down with words.

What do we actually do, though? How do we behave, when we understand these things (or are at least beginning to)? I can't engage in popular culture very much because of the identity politics, virtue signalling, clan claiming. I may agree with a point here and a point there but am left homeless and suspected by everyone! Which is why I love MN.

I feel as though I'm looking at a world that I can't meaningfully engage with.
What I actually do is low key local projects, building community, supporting local charities etc.

This is the interesting thing. I think part of our inability to describe it is deliberate - there is a lot of political obfuscation going on; and part of it is because we are hitting up against the unconscious. We are feeling it rather than being able to see it clearly. We know "summat's up" but it is difficult to get one's head around it or to articulate it. When I work with this kind of phenomenon in my sessions with clients, clearly the unconscious is at play to a significant level.
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BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 11:54

@Stripesgalore

This may seem very naive, but this idea that we can’t change anyone but ourselves.

I have been hugely shaped and changed as an adult (for good and bad) in my emotional and psychological state and in my opinions and beliefs by the actions and comments of others.

There must be things we can say and do that influence other people in positive ways.

I think that when we are ready to hear a message, we hear it. And that message doesn't have to be vocalised; it can be in the way we are. Some people do the former - they are campaigners. Some do the latter; they influence, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
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dayoftheclownfish · 25/06/2020 11:57

You definitely make me want to read Jung, BiPsychle. I think I can get my head around the politics but why intelligent people believe some of the nonsense continues to elude me. I’d it all down to a crisis in parenting?!

dayoftheclownfish · 25/06/2020 11:58

To which I‘d add that we’re living in the age of the ‘influencer’ and the ‘thought leader’ ...

Melia100 · 25/06/2020 12:10

For women interested in Jung, but who don't have the focus (ahem...me...) to read Jung at the moment, I can recommend a podcast, This Jungian Life. Lisa Marchiano is one of the presenters. I find the episodes endlessly interesting, and somewhat of a balm for the soul, which as a good agnostic, I neither believe in nor disbelieve :)

www.thisjungianlife.com/

RedToothBrush · 25/06/2020 12:11

I'm not sure it's a wholly controversial pov.

The BLM has two parts imo. One driven by genuine civil rights and human rights injustice and one part driven by other interests which don't necessarily align with the fight for justice.

There is a real focus on symbolism (the statues issues for example) in the media and on social media (show support by changing your avatar) and an absence of proper discussion about long term change and how you overturn institutional level problems (access to education and the influence of poverty in this).

Instead we are seeing talk of tokenist places on company boards and in the media to fill quotas rather than properly looking at the power dynamics of who this ultimately benefits.

(I've talked a bit about this in the blm thread in feminist chat so I'm not going to repeat it here).

The movement has itself been 'appropriated' and I believe exploited for corporate interests and there is a glaring absence of examination of how this works on a global scale - its confined to racism within Western communities rather than racism by Western countries on a national level.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 25/06/2020 12:12

I think part of our inability to describe it is deliberate - there is a lot of political obfuscation going on; and part of it is because we are hitting up against the unconscious. We are feeling it rather than being able to see it clearly

If you want to make sure people can't fight back against something then making sure they have no way to even discuss what they're trying to fight is a great way to accomplish that goal. Some stuff we just don't have good words for, like the type of men I was trying to describe earlier. Queer theory has stepped into one of those gaps in vocabulary and filled it to overflowing with complete fucking nonsense, but the thing is people don't really have any other language to use, so they default to what's available, and then over time using that language influences how they think about the concepts they're trying to describe. This is why I get stubborn when people are all, can't we just concede this particular word? Well, no, because when you do that it has an impact on how people are able to talk about concepts and issues and how they mentally frame the world around them, as well as their own feelings, impulses, etc. Language is really, really important.

I always come back to the idea of boundaries too. Who doesn't want which group of people to have them, and why? Who does the erosion of those boundaries benefit?

BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 12:15

@dayoftheclownfish

You definitely make me want to read Jung, BiPsychle. I think I can get my head around the politics but why intelligent people believe some of the nonsense continues to elude me. I’d it all down to a crisis in parenting?!
Both your comments (this and the one below it) are really addressed from a Jungian perspective by a lack of grounding in myth and symbol. People think Jung harps on about religion, but what he's trying to get to is the symbolism that the old religions had which link us into ourselves, our past, our ancestors. We're losing this ... which is why we now revere influencers ... and movements that smack of religious fervour, but which are poor facsimiles.

We are essentially facing a spiritual crisis. I think Neil Gaiman expressed this well with "American Gods" (his own personal opinions notwithstanding).

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BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 12:17

[quote Melia100]For women interested in Jung, but who don't have the focus (ahem...me...) to read Jung at the moment, I can recommend a podcast, This Jungian Life. Lisa Marchiano is one of the presenters. I find the episodes endlessly interesting, and somewhat of a balm for the soul, which as a good agnostic, I neither believe in nor disbelieve :)

www.thisjungianlife.com/[/quote]
It is a fantastic podcast! Also "Speaking of Jung" with Laura London.

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lionheart · 25/06/2020 12:18

That's really interesting Prodigal.

I can remember reading about 'Modern Primitives' (you can google this if you have a strong stomach), especially in California. They were people from all over who felt that they did not belong anywhere and, in particular needed some form of ritual to mark out their status and place in the world.

They were looking for a 'tribe' and found each other. Their 'initiation rites' were drawn from various (often inauthentic) tribal practices, especially from Native America. These usually involved pain and endurance, often enhanced by natural hallucinogens. The end result was often some kind of bodily transformation, tattoos, scarring etc. But also a sense of belonging, of peace, of achievement.

One theory about this phenomenon was that a more secular society removes those transitional markers that might otherwise bestow a sense of identity and belonging onto someone (even if it is an identity that is resisted), so the absence is filled by invented rituals and rites.

It guess to make sense of this it would be useless to consider exactly what a trans-identification gives to someone.

But the psychology has to intersect with the social and political in any analysis.

BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 12:18

@RedToothBrush

I'm not sure it's a wholly controversial pov.

The BLM has two parts imo. One driven by genuine civil rights and human rights injustice and one part driven by other interests which don't necessarily align with the fight for justice.

There is a real focus on symbolism (the statues issues for example) in the media and on social media (show support by changing your avatar) and an absence of proper discussion about long term change and how you overturn institutional level problems (access to education and the influence of poverty in this).

Instead we are seeing talk of tokenist places on company boards and in the media to fill quotas rather than properly looking at the power dynamics of who this ultimately benefits.

(I've talked a bit about this in the blm thread in feminist chat so I'm not going to repeat it here).

The movement has itself been 'appropriated' and I believe exploited for corporate interests and there is a glaring absence of examination of how this works on a global scale - its confined to racism within Western communities rather than racism by Western countries on a national level.

I totally agree. And these new symbols are replacing our deep, psychical symbols. They are the "new gods", and they are devoid of any kind of spiritual richness.
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lionheart · 25/06/2020 12:22

And always yes to this, Prodigal.

'I always come back to the idea of boundaries too. Who doesn't want which group of people to have them, and why? Who does the erosion of those boundaries benefit?'

BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 12:23

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

I think part of our inability to describe it is deliberate - there is a lot of political obfuscation going on; and part of it is because we are hitting up against the unconscious. We are feeling it rather than being able to see it clearly

If you want to make sure people can't fight back against something then making sure they have no way to even discuss what they're trying to fight is a great way to accomplish that goal. Some stuff we just don't have good words for, like the type of men I was trying to describe earlier. Queer theory has stepped into one of those gaps in vocabulary and filled it to overflowing with complete fucking nonsense, but the thing is people don't really have any other language to use, so they default to what's available, and then over time using that language influences how they think about the concepts they're trying to describe. This is why I get stubborn when people are all, can't we just concede this particular word? Well, no, because when you do that it has an impact on how people are able to talk about concepts and issues and how they mentally frame the world around them, as well as their own feelings, impulses, etc. Language is really, really important.

I always come back to the idea of boundaries too. Who doesn't want which group of people to have them, and why? Who does the erosion of those boundaries benefit?

YES!

Language is so important, and I totally agree: by trying to argue using language that has become entirely limited, we enter into the ideology. We need to be impeccable with our words. That's part of it, anyway. There are certain words and phrases that I refuse to use unless I'm quoting/citing them.

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lionheart · 25/06/2020 12:30

I suppose one question might relate to how queer theorists engage with psychoanalysis or the work of Jung and Melanie Klein?

Melia100 · 25/06/2020 12:30

Also "Speaking of Jung" with Laura London

Awesome, thanks! Hadn't heard of that one before.

I've found that the podcast I mentioned gives me relief from the grind of this particular fight - to retain same sex provision for women and girls - by giving me another lens through which to view conflict/s.

AllWashedOut · 25/06/2020 12:43

This thread is fascinating. Thank you BiCycle

BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 12:51

@lionheart

I suppose one question might relate to how queer theorists engage with psychoanalysis or the work of Jung and Melanie Klein?
They are not comfortable bed-fellows, @lionheart. There appears to be one main book written about both, but I can't see how classic psychoanalytic theory can gel with queer theory: too much "mother"; too much "father" ;)
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BiPsychle · 25/06/2020 12:53

You're welcome @AllWashedOut. I have been thinking about doing this for months. I've been on MN for well over 10 years, and have steered clear of posting much myself. But I saw that this angle was largely absent, and I think it might be an important one for some people.

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