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Riiight. We really need to be posting the charming video of Fisher calling LGB 'deviant' and associating being a 'tomboy' as a child with being 'naughty' wherever Fox Fisher crops up, now we have a copy. Fisher is neck deep in bigotry about homosexuality and sex stereotypes, and is still in a position of influence among gender questioning kids who may well turn out to be homosexual and still gets uncritical airtime at the BBC. Wrong crowd? Fisher & co are the definition of the wrong crowd.

Is there an easy link to post? I saw the vlog last night.

Well I listened to some crap monologue yesterday afternoon.

It started out with a ‘female’ voice saying how they didn’t drink to avoid going to public loos, tried really hard to avoid peeing outside etc. I thought - oh wow, a woman saying that they don’t feel safe in unisex loos!.

No it was a trans man complaining about going to women’s loos and people thinking about them. They never actually said they had been attacked or abused.

Then they went on about light shining out of them (yes I know, I thought that too( and how hard it was when the world believed lies about you (ie your sex not matching your feelings).

I await a similar slot fives to a woman who is too scared to use unisex loos because they are mixed. I won’t hold my breath.

Isn’t Fox a transman?

Yes. Fox was born female, presents as male but I think identifies as non-binary. Owl was born male, presents as female, but also I think identifies as nb. Rather confusingly, Owl's "real" Icelandic surname ends in -dottir, which means daughter, but I assume Owl must have changed it from -sson at some point.

I don't think either of them has anything interesting, intelligent or thoughtful to say but I suppose they have a USP which is that both of them are transgender. Plus they've given themselves silly names, which is always going to grab the attention of shallow-minded media people.

That was Shortcuts presented by Josie Long SerenityNowwwww. For anyone else interested, fast forward to 16:44 for self-obsession and quasi religious explanations:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000k9bc

I was very unimpressed that Adlington presented women in women's single sex spaces as being a threat.

Why isn’t Fox saying tranmen are men instead of transwomen are women?

Because Fox has learned the fundamental point, trans activism is about centring men. It is risky to not go along with this orthodoxy. Especially for a transman.

Why is this about fox feeling safe in women's spaces? Doesn't he want to go in men's spaces as he's a man now? Surely it's men he should be complaining about?

Either way I'm pretty sure radical feminists are happy for him to share with us. As long as he doesn't talk

I think the average R4 listener not engaged in this stuff would have rolled their eyes. As usual the TRAs are doing our work for us.

The presenter referred to JK supporting MF in saying men can't become women. A point with which the majority of the UK concur.

I think the average listener still has only a vague notion of what this is about. They are under the illusion that TWAW refers to castrated men or some mythical intersex-of-the-brain diagnosis. A TW is a man who says he is a woman. That is literally it, and as we don't - yet - have self ID in the UK, the BBC could and should provide a counterpoint. Did they learn nothing from the Nigel Lawson saga?

Fox wants an "open conversation" now.

I thought it was "No Debate" all the way with them?

Fox doesn't want an open conversation - Fox just wants to repeat the mantra "transwomen are women" and send everyone for re-education for their wrongthink.

We really need to be posting the charming video of Fisher calling LGB 'deviant' and associating being a 'tomboy' as a child with being 'naughty' wherever Fox Fisher crops up, now we have a copy. Fisher is neck deep in bigotry about homosexuality and sex stereotypes, and isstillin a position of influence among gender questioning kids who may well turn out to be homosexual and still gets uncritical airtime at the BBC. Wrong crowd? Fisher & co are thedefinitionof the wrong crowd.

There is a copy?!

We really need to be posting the charming video of Fisher calling LGB 'deviant' and associating being a 'tomboy' as a child with being 'naughty' wherever Fox Fisher crops up, now we have a copy. Fisher is neck deep in bigotry about homosexuality and sex stereotypes, and isstillin a position of influence among gender questioning kids who may well turn out to be homosexual and still gets uncritical airtime at the BBC. Wrong crowd? Fisher & co are thedefinitionof the wrong crowd.

Please post it here, or a link to it, so that we can all start sharing it.

This is a link to a tweet with the video in it. It's just an 18 second clip. Shorn of the context, I don't know how much reliance to place on it. twitter.com/x_x___o_0/status/1275303374058029058?s=20

Elderly DM phoned this morning for a chat and mentioned: "heard a very odd thing on R4 this morning, some person going on and on about people needing 're educating'. It sounded like the Nazis or Maoism, as if they want people brainwashed or something!"

I suspect what most the general public heard is pretty similar.

That's clear, Gaspo. Objects to the T being attached to the LGB because LGB is about sexuality and that muddies the waters for T because LGB is a kind of deviant thing... Basically seems to be suggesting that LGB people aren't safe around children.

I've always said there was homophobia at the heart of trans ideology and there it is, exposed. Thanks.

It's a four minute vlog from one of Mermaids youth retreats. Fisher talks about how attaching the T to the LGB is a problem, because it makes people think the T is deviant, how Fisher was a tomboy and that meant Fisher was seen as naughty, but actually, it was just because Fisher was trans. Despite claiming to support gender non conformity, Fisher doesn't seem to consider it could have been neither naughty or trans, it could be just a child expressing themselves outside of gendered norms which doesn't indicate anything negative.

At the end, Fisher references the case of the boy who was removed from his mother because she was pushing a trans identity on him and Mermaids got a rebuke from judge in the case. I saw the whole thing last night but I can't find the link.

Link here...
drive.google.com/file/d/171cgzvR6b2Tv1XT9Re9lCGg7iMh5Ho45/view

Good point about the statement TMAM being more relevant to the latest JRK furore.

So what Fox should have said was:

"Trans-men are men, and some of them menstruate. Therefore some men have periods."

And see how that would go down with the Radio 4 listenership...

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Yesterday 20:56 DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I couldn’t get the Fox Fisher.com link to open, so it’s just a screenshot from google, saying that Fox attended Mermaids secret retreats to show films, to chat with...’

The next screenshot is the LinkedIn page for MyGenderation, showing a founding date of 2013 (pre Owl-era)

And then way down the google rankings comes this interview:

llamapost.com/2014/12/07/fox-fisher-trans-activist-gender-documenter-artist/

(Screenshot of relevant section)

So Fisher (F) is a long term fixture of Susie Green’s PR machine (internally and externally).

From another thread

Fox says at the end of that that this was their third Mermaids residential course. So of course they believe what they believe. They've been indoctrinated by a woman who did something absolutely desperate to her own child because of homophobia.

This clip needs to be archived somewhere safe in a resources thread so that it can be found when needed.

Surely most people agree with what Fox is saying in that clip even though it was articulated in a rather clumsy way. LGB (and hetronormativity) should be distinct from gender ideology. Yes it does give the impression that there is something inappropriate about this movement when young children are taught that anything goes and it's acceptance without exception. Don't we all feel uncomfortable with kids being taught the ins and outs of obscure sexual practices or the pride pictures of children mixing with furries and rubber men?

Young trans men are told by older transwomen that they now have male privilege so must put transwomen first and these females fall for the lies because their female socialisation tells them these adult males are in charge.

The oppressed become the oppressors.

I certainly agree with the separation of LGB and T, but not because, as Fox says here, there's something deviant about LGB people.

Yes, an awful lot of LGB people are very uncomfortable that so much of Pride is a display of kink. Me for one. Haven't been to Pride for years.

Suggest all concerned lesbians get involved with Get the L Out or, at the very least, LGB Alliance.

drive.google.com/file/d/171cgzvR6b2Tv1XT9Re9lCGg7iMh5Ho45/view Clickable version of the link. OK, now I have the context, that's really, really bad. It's also gobsmackingly arrogant and lacking in self-awareness. Stonewall added the T to the LGB in 2015. This vlog dates from shortly afterwards - 2016? (Basing this on fact that Fisher talks about the court case which became public knowledge in 2017. Here's a link to the judgement, which is extremely instructive about Mermaids and what was happening to that poor little boy.www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html )

Now, for all I know, Fisher was not in favour of transactivists getting involved with Stonewall. But what I'm seeing here is that Stonewall was set up to represent and campaign for LGB people. In 2015, with most of their campaign aims achieved, instead of scaling back or focussing on what remained (plenty of homophobia around to tackle, after all), they decided to add the T. A cynic might say this was because there was going to be a lot of money in offering transawareness training and also they were jumping on a bandwagon that was already accelerating away from them.

Now we find a vocal transactivist the following year saying that it's unhelpful for T to be yoked in the public consciousness with the LGB because they're different things (yes! exactly what GC people have been saying) and because lots of people think LGB represents deviancy. FFS! Talk about a cuckoo in the nest.

As for the insight into Fisher's upbringing, I despair. It could hardly be clearer from that brief vignette that Fisher was brought up in an environment where strict gender roles were enforced. Inability to comply with those didn't make Fisher a bad or naughty child, but it also didn't mean Fisher was born in the wrong body either. So near and yet so far.

The presenters were definitely stifling a laugh after the end of the piece.

They've been harassing the agency since December about wrong speak, I bet they are seriously sick of the re-education demands after that length of time.

What a middle class snob to say "fallen in with the wrong crowd". I haven't heard anyone say such a bigoted thing for a while.

I used to work with an Extremely Difficult Person whose behaviour caused lots and lots of problems. After some years, we were puzzled by a change. The EDP uncharacteristically sat through several meetings without making a fuss and agreed to several things which would normally have set off a Grade A toys-out-of-pram incident. Finally, it became clear why. The EDP had been negotiating over a new job and was going to leave. It could hardly have been more inconvenient for the EDP to go at that particular time, and yet, as news spread through our department, the EDP's colleagues (literally) danced for joy.

I suspect something similar at The Blair Partnership.