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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC Radio Scotland transgender discussion today

23 replies

stillraining · 21/06/2020 16:46

Did anyone hear this? There was a woman from Engender, who said that research done in America showed that there had been no attacks on women by transwomen in "women's spaces" and that transwomen were not a danger. But I've definitely seen some reports on here of attacks, both in America and elsewhere. How do they get away with saying that there is no possible danger to women from transwomen? More importantly, how do they get away with no-one (and this was quite a long discussion) even mentioning the possibility that men who are not transwomen could take advantage of self-id to access women's spaces and attack or otherwise harm women? No mention of sport either.
Mindbogglingly, the Engender woman, in the context of suggestions that some women who had been attacked by men in the past might find it difficult to lose all women only spaces and might stay at home, of her own initiative said that women were always free to access safe spaces at rape crisis centres, which by the way were open to transwomen too!
The transwoman on the programme talked about JK Rowling at some length - a lot of stress on her having struggled with her gender identity and violence by men, and that she was reacting against that by spreading the trauma to vast numbers of other people. Humiliating her, basically, rather than actually addressing what she has said, and urging her to get off Twitter.
The only person mentioning the GC viewpoint was a journalist, who was mentioning it on the basis of what she's heard that such women believe, rather than it being what she herself thinks.
It felt like a real con job, with just a few hysterical women who are easily "triggered" having any issues with self-id.

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OvaHere · 21/06/2020 16:53

Some useful background to Engender.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1192403413306421248.html

Conclusion: this group is developing and influencing and, to an extent, enforcing policy. For, and paid by, ScotGov. It is, in effect, ScotGov's sub-contracted feminism unit. Should the government have a feminism unit? If so, which branch of feminist thought should it hold?

Shorter conclusion: Engender is not a women’s organisation in the sense that they and others imply, and they don’t represent me (or you). Engender will not lobby or challenge the Government. It is part of the government.

Second conclusion: Those 101 charities that all take the same ‘’inclusive" line? They’re not just all networking and consulting on the subject, nor just falling in because they need to toe the funding line. They agree because to a huge extent THEY ARE ALL THE SAME PEOPLE.

DryHeave · 21/06/2020 16:56

No didn’t hear it. What show and what time was it on?

stillraining · 21/06/2020 16:57

Not sure what show - it was on at around 10.15am.

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DryHeave · 21/06/2020 17:03

Sunday Morning with Tony Kearney, 15 mins in.

Aesopfable · 21/06/2020 17:35

America showed that there had been no attacks on women by transwomen in "women's spaces"

What has America got to do with this? She only needed to look as far as Fife to see there have been attacks by transwomen in “women’s spaces”.

FFSFFSFFS · 21/06/2020 17:44

But women don't need to have been attacked to have felt uncomfortable do they - and why is that discomfort not important?

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 21/06/2020 17:59

It felt like a real con job, with just a few hysterical women who are easily "triggered" having any issues with self-id.

I am a 53 year old woman. I'm not in any way hysterical, nor am I 'triggered' by anything. Ever.

I have a massive issue with self-ID and absolutely do not welcome any male people into female only spaces. I suspect that many women do likewise!

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 21/06/2020 18:00

But women don't need to have been attacked to have felt uncomfortable do they - and why is that discomfort not important?

Exactly. Why are women's needs always shoved to the bottom of the priority pile? Angry

HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 21/06/2020 18:02

There was literally an attack by a transwoman in a women's only space last year in Scotland!

BetsyM00 · 21/06/2020 18:20

It's at about 9.30 mins in: www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000k7b4

Haven't listened to it yet. Will brace myself for it later.

wellbehavedwomen · 21/06/2020 18:20

It's not even true in America. There have been. Five minutes on google can throw up cases - names, photos, States. It's absolutely happened.

I'm sure it's rare. There aren't that many trans people, and I don't believe offending is any more common than it would be with anyone else of the person's natal sex. But it's a lie to say it doesn't ever happen, and I am so sick of the lies around this subject. Women need spaces free of men not because all pose a risk, but because some do. And that risk creates anxiety and stress, too.

The reality is that most women feel safer and more relaxed in women-only spaces, for extremely good reasons. Why don't we matter?

OldCrone · 21/06/2020 18:22

there had been no attacks on women by transwomen in "women's spaces" and that transwomen were not a danger.

How did they manage to miss this from last year?

A transgender woman threatened to stab a 10-year-old girl’s mother during a terrifying sexual assault in the female toilets of a Morrison’s supermarket. Katie Dolatowski, 18, admitted grabbing the youngster by her face and forcing her into the cubicle before demanding she take her trousers off at the store in Fife, Scotland, on 4 March.

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

stillraining · 21/06/2020 19:17

They only mentioned some American research, probably intentionally ignoring the cases they know about.

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stillraining · 21/06/2020 19:21

They also said they'd got legal legal advice that the changes were lawful.
The BBC presenter started the programme by talking about "assigned at birth" and "cis".

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stillraining · 21/06/2020 19:22

I'd like to see that legal advice.

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Iamhangingin · 21/06/2020 19:30

Argh.... I do follow Engender and thought they were okay. The Katie Dolatowski incident is pretty raw for me as my daughter is the same age, it's our local supermarket and she uses those loos on her own (next to the cafe which is obvs my post shop bribe although their coffee is awful!) I have politely emailed Engender to point out their statistical error!

rabbitwoman · 21/06/2020 20:16

I have noticed that :

It's a good tactic because its so baffling :

-there has never been an attack by a transwoman in a woman's loo, not one
-what about Katie dolatowski in Fife?
-..... You can't judge a whole community by one bad apple. They have self ID IN Canada and there have been no problems at all

  • what about Jonathan yaniv? If convicted, he could end up in a woman's jail
  • so. Every prisoner is given a suitable risk assessment, other women are not in danger from transwomen in prisons.
  • what about Karen White?
  • a whole community of transwomen shouldn't suffer because of one person. Transmen would be welcomed into our spaces....
  • what about Jason Smith?
  • why are you so transphobic! Transwomen ARE women, they just want to be able to live their lives and calling them transwomen is othering them!
  • what about Blair White?
  • she voted for Trump. ranswomen are the most oppressed and vulnerable in society, don't you know they are being MURDERED
  • on average about one transwoman a year has been murdered in the past 12 years
  • how can you be so callous!? Those are human beings, even one victim is one too many
  • hmmmm. Unless they are victims of Katie delatowski....

I mean, it's as if they don't do their research.....

rabbitwoman · 21/06/2020 20:31

Fact is though... So what?

Liz truss knows about johnathan yaniv, Karen White et al and the dangers they pose. She knows about the Tavistock Clinic and the upcoming judicial review. She knows that the safeguarding credentials of munroe bergdof, jess Bradley and aimee challenor have been seriously compromised after they contributed to drafting the proposed legislation (or organisations they advised did) . She knows the principles of the act have already been tested in court - the 13 Yr old schoolgirl who won her case, maya forstarter' s case is still on appeal, more Tavistock cases, and didn't the prisoners attacked by Karen White sue the prison service? If not, there are cases in America, a quick Google tells me.... That without the JK Rowling debacle and how the whole debate has suddenly entered mainstream politics, the government would be mad to let the law pass in the current climate, wouldn't they?

I don't have legal training but does anyone know?

FantaOra · 21/06/2020 20:31

When are we ever going to get an explanation of why men are allowed to use single sex services for women that doesn't rely on lies?

I don't agree that I have to prove that I am in permanent danger before I can expect men to stay out. So sick of these lying manipulative people.

Angryresister · 21/06/2020 22:53

This programme on tonight re men in Korea .Stacey Dooley investigates ,, www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2020/13/stacey-dooley-investigates-spycam-sex-criminals

MujeresLibres · 22/06/2020 12:24

You could maybe try 'Points of View' but that might be just TV. Since you are describing a factual error though, try emailing the reporter or the show editor or producer.

MujeresLibres · 22/06/2020 12:27

There's also the BBC complaints website

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint

bluechameleon · 22/06/2020 13:18

Points of View is for TV but there is a radio equivalent, Feedback

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