Concerns for the future - related to JKR backlash

[IDanielRadcliffe]

I’m in my 20s. I’m despairing at the treatment JKR has had from my generation - teens/20s. Obviously the misogyny has completely enraged me, but I find the wider picture alarming.

I’ve tried to type a post several times now and I’m really struggling to articulate myself - but my main point is: what happens in 10, 20, 30 years when these people are in power? I know they wield a lot of power already, but it seems although a lot of organisations pay lip service to the woke, it’s more like they’re running scared of the mob and don’t really believe what they’re saying. But one day those in the mob will be running media organisations, corporations, they’ll be politicians and leaders etc (not just social media interns). They hate the discord now, when they are in charge they will have the power to ban it altogether.

Then, when the mob are in charge, who will speak out? In the next 10-20 years, how do non-woke people get into media organisations? I know lots of people say they know younger people don’t swallow the TRA ideology but how do they get to be in the position (usually older and established) of those who felt able to speak out? Media industries are known for being dominated by middle class, university educated people who can afford to do unpaid internships and it’s only getting worse - and they are most likely to be woke.

The Times have stood firm behind Janice Turner etc, but any young journalist looking at the abuse may just think they’ll not bother getting involved, or be too scared to and worried for their future career. Anywhere left of the Spectator and the Times seems to be unwelcome to those who don’t toe the line. It seems to be even worse at the BBC and in the arts.

Obviously I’m mainly concerned with women’s rights, but what’s to stop them applying these tactics to other topics? Denial of reality, denial of science, no dissent allowed and abuse and threats to anyone who tries to speak out.

What can we do? Do you think once they’ve lived in the real world a bit they’ll change their views? Is there an inevitable backlash against wokeness (in all forms)? I’d be interested in anyone’s thoughts. Sorry if this is all a bit melodramatic, I’m WFH and I’m wary of talking to friends about this atm so it’s going round and round my head!

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Because the guidable young women of today, that are being taken in by the mantra TWAW and are handing over their rights to dignity, privacy and protections to male bodied people, will realise they were lied to, when reality bites

OK, but still not sure how any of that would affect a woman's (bio for clarity) woman's employment opportunities or childcare issues.
It's not like trans rights would suddenly make it so women can't get a good job in the future or nobody to look after their kids.
That's a bit of a leap.

Do you often play at disingenuousness? I’m sure I’ve seen your name on FWR threads before...

I’m sure you’re perfectly capable of drawing the lines for yourself, if you’re able to understand that c follow b follows a.

Otherwise, if you really can’t draw the lines for yourself, I’m sure that if you stop and think about it you will understand that without a biological definition of womanhood all protections of women with respect of equality in employment, let’s say, but in fact all protections, in law and otherwise, cannot, and will not, exist.

Just to be clear, the above refers to ‘trans rights’ as set out by TRAs and current trans ideology.

Protections for trans individuals as a stand-alone issue separate to women’s rights and protections is another matter altogether.

@IDanielRadcliffe

They can’t eradicate us all.

The real world is very different to the twitter madhouse.

I'm in my 20s too and I'm worried as well but more and more people are seeing this TRA thing for what it really is. Twitter is a hellscape for the most part, however there are a lot of people on there with their eyes wide open and that's a great thing. I'm sure it's the same for other social media platforms too. There are fantastic female spaces on Reddit (another male dominated shithole, but the female dominated places are brilliant). There's even a place that wants the T to be dropped from LGBT because they can see the damage TRAs are doing.

I don't think these people will rise in power because they don't have the intelligence to do so. Maybe if they had the money to do it then sure it's a possibility, but that's one of the reasons they hate JKR. She's rich as hell, speaks facts and logic AND is actually a woman. Wokeness is a disease and a few crazies on Twitter won't ruin my life or others lives. It's so important to stay positive and keep fighting.

This also worries me greatly OP. you are not alone, I am doing my best to fight the cause but I must admit at detriment to my mental health, I have despaired at the reaction to JKR, it just feels like a losing battle when this ideology is being taught it schools and we have MP’s who are wiping out women’s rights and saying TWAW, let alone the woke celebrities spouting the same. I too also worry that the people who will be in power when I am old and possibly need care, they hate the middle aged and they will be in charge when I am old, it does really concern me.

I'm 39. I used to be the wokest wokester you ever met. I didn't even think about it. TWAW was just something I said to gain approval/confirm my wokleness. I was in a relative position of political power. Having three dcs, and ending an abusive marriage, being continually harassed by my ex, and then being blamed/disbelieved for my own abuse sorted me right out. Not to mention bringing up a disabled child.

Don't worry, real life will happen to these women too.

The other thing of course it might come out of this in the future is that that we will start to see what actually happens to these people who've been experimenting with their health. Will there be a lot of stories of people who have wrecked their bodies? Will we hear more stories of detransitioners? I know that Rosanna Arquette brother transitioned and at the end of his life he said transitioning was a lie and he totally denounced the whole thing. Will we start hearing more stories from people like this?

*OhHolyJesus Thu 18-Jun-20 14:13:00

I see it as the ones fighting it now are protecting women and children now and for the future. They would like us to stop I'm sure but one day they might thank us.*

^^ This

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Because the guidable young women of today, that are being taken in by the mantra TWAW and are handing over their rights to dignity, privacy and protections to male bodied people, will realise they were lied to, when reality bites

OK, but still not sure how any of that would affect a woman's (bio for clarity) woman's employment opportunities or childcare issues.
It's not like trans rights would suddenly make it so women can't get a good job in the future or nobody to look after their kids.
That's a bit of a leap.

What about how when "gender" representation in companies and organisations doesn't discriminate between biological women and trans women, so that if any quotas for hiring women can be filled with trans women instead, women still get discriminated against, but this time there's no data to support it, no reason to challenge it?

One of the things that affects women's ability to work is that the biological work of bearing children, breastfeeding, looking after children and other vulnerable family members falls to women (either exclusively or largely, for both biological and social reasons). This is something that feminists for a long time fought to gain recognition of. DH can do his bit in looking after DD but only I could birth her and breastfeed her, and take the substantial hit to my career by doing so. But if "not all women" face these obstacles, and we're not allowed to name the way women's biological reality affects our social lives, why shouldn't my institution promote "Denise" (who was born Dan) over me, since she's a woman who never needs to take maternity leave? And then the argument is that of course not all women have or want children. So if you are a woman who has a child, then you've "chosen" to take that hit. (And you'll find plenty of "children are a lifestyle choice" opinion havers all over the place who will join in.) Then surely woke management will be arguing that it's special treatment to allow any adjustment to "uterus owners" for the biological reality they "chose". And bam - back where we were. It's not so far fetched. I already see this being argued by people in my workplace -- men and women.

I've swung both ways this last week or so. I can't deal with FB at the moment because my timeline - mostly full of writers - was so brimming with woke scolds that I couldn't bear it any longer. Just a few brave souls sticking their heads above the parapet and getting shot down. I've decamped to Twitter, somewhere I don't usually bother with much, but it's been a sheer joy to find such a great community of GC folk within the safety of anonymity. No fear of someone writing to my publisher to denounce my wrong-think.

I felt terribly despondent when I saw the pile-on of JKR, and the traction the TRAs have got in the hearts and minds of my peers. But I've seen more seasoned GC warriors than myself all saying the tide seems to be turning, and I'm placing my hope in that and trying to change minds where I can without detonating my career.

@stackthecats, I think you make an excellent point about childbirth. I've always been a feminist, but getting pregnant was when I realised the harsh truth of women's lives and how little fairness there really is in the workplace. When they see how easily trans women scoot by the whole issue and are rewarded with promotions and pay rises, these woke girls will wake up to just how badly they've been duped.

I have also worried about this, OP

But in addition to all that has been said already, I think it is inevitable that with any "progress" made by the TRA agenda, more and more Karen Whites, Yanivs, mcKinnons, Hubbards and so on will come out of the woodwork and show themselves. Which is bloody awful of course, as women and children are the ones who'll suffer at their hands

But they will appear, and "no true trans" will become less and less viable as a riposte

SameOldBS exactly -- and in the woke future, not only will "uterus havers" who choose to undertake the work of reproducing the species be discriminated against once again, the new fun! angle to it will be that we aren't even allowed to speak about our biological experiences of birth and discrimination, lest we assert our "cis privilege" of reminding trans women that they don't actually have uteruses in the first place.

(ie. Don't tell me about stillbirth rates or postpartum depression! My Feelings are HURT! It's a privilege for women to get to experience these things! Why should they get any allowances for what in itself is the HURTFUL PRIVILEGE of experiencing them?) (Anyone who thinks this is OTT should go and have a poke about on twitter or Tumblr and will soon see exactly this argument.)

Let’s not forget, there are overarching principles in jeopardy as well.

The situation we’re perilously close to finding ourselves in (we are pretty much there already, in fact) is dangerous for everyone, not just women and children. When ‘truth’ is dictated by those who have the power to enforce their agenda, regardless of material reality as everyone knows it, then we are all, regardless of which camp we’re in on this particular issue, only one step away from the gulag.

I was getting quite depressed with the not so young women (50s) on my social media who chant TWAW until reading this but I've just realised they don't have children and I agree that childbirth and parenting change many women's viewpoints.

I didn't know that about the other Arquette sibling. I knew they were trans but that's it. Patricia Arquette was very vocal about her opposition to Maya Forstater, wasn't she? Citing her sibling's suicide as a reason you must say TWAW?

If it is any comfort, two of my DC are completely on board with the whole GC thing. Neither wants to speak up yet (they don't want to be torn to shreds by oh-so-compassionate wokesters at uni) but they know what they think. Both are firmly in favour of trans people having rights but not at the expense of natal women. I think a lot of their generation feel much the same.

Do you often play at disingenuousness? I’m sure I’ve seen your name on FWR threads before...

Advanced search is a wonderful thing and I recommend that people make use of it when they feel that little tingle of suspicion you're having right now.

Patricia Arquette is an excellent example of the ways TRAs have been able to weaponize the friends and relatives of trans identifying people and use them to beat everyone else into submission. Who can question someone asking everyone to be kind to their loved one? Pay no attention to how unkind that would be to other people, focus on the outpouring of emotion from this lovely person. Their emotion matters more than the emotions of the people protesting, and you can tell because they're so very shouty and angry.

I agree it's easier for young female people, particularly the more privileged university years females who tend to have the louder voice, to be oblivious to any real issues since haven't yet run up against the barriers that they will encounter due to being born with female biology. At 20 I would have been one of them. It's later that the reality starts to sink in and be everywhere you go, at home, at work, in the street.

There never will be a happy end - not in the next couple of decades at the very least - where mixed sex facilities of people who all identify as women undress and shower and share each other's lipstick in some lovely feminine utopia of kindness. Look at the anecdotes from nurses (anonymously,) of what happens often when a male who identifies as female is placed on a ward. A MNetter a few months back mentioned I think 3, and all 3 had had to be removed from the women's ward within a couple of days for sexually threatening staff, flashing and behaving in sexually intimidating and harassing ways to female patients. We know what happens to female prisoners in prison when a male who identifies as female with their extensive rape record is placed with them. Even in just those two situations, there isn't a happy and successful outcome - certainly not for the female people involved - because the male people involved very often have to do their male thing.

Female people are being blamed for not tolerating it and accepting that this is normal behaviour they should suck up: it gets no more sexist. Show me anything anywhere written by the political lobby pushing this that ever says 'that behaviour is totally intolerable, those poor females, we understand completely why they are so angry and we're angry too - we separate ourselves from people who behave like this'. You will never find it. Never. The behaviour is fine. It's the female people having a problem with it that is so evil.

As many of us have heard from male abusers: it's 'be quiet and behave nicely while I abuse you, because your crying and resisting just upsets/annoys me'.

This is why females will, in greater and greater numbers, see and resist this and know why it can never work. Not until males in this country, regardless of how they identify, drastically change their socialisation, their view of females and their values around behaviour.

Bit curious here - how does trans rights have anything to do with childcare and fair employment opportunities?

Because childbirth and childcare are one of the main causes for female-bodied people losing ground in their career and therefore losing earning power and autonomy. Children in today's society make formerly-independant women (adult human females) reliant on men (adult human males) far more often than vice versa, creating a structural inequality in practice even if women are equal legally. Furthermore, the gender characteristics mapped on to the female sex due to their more often taking the role of mother, caregiver and domestic manager then spills into unconscious prejudice against women based on their sex regardless of whether the woman in question is actually a mother.

Recognising this, feminists fighting to empower women understood that if women were to be empowered in reality and not just in legal theory, they would need rights and opportunities to specifically counterbalance the power-drag of motherhood.

Those rights and opportunities, whether legal protections or social initiatives like all-women shortlists and all-women STEM courses, have generally been conceptualized as for "women" rather than "adult human females" simply because that's what "women" meant so there was no reason to specify female.

However, if the word "woman" is redefined to include males, the opportunities intended to help adult human females achieve their potential in society become open to people who don't suffer the problems they are there to offset. That has two detrimental effects on the adult human females: firstly the number of opportunities for them decreases since some places are now occupied by males (looking at you, Pip Bunce), and secondly that the males are likely to accelerate faster than the females because they have all the boost and none of the drag.

www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/final-days-alexis-arquette-a-928507

"In 2013, amid increasing health complications, Alexis began presenting herself as a man again, telling Ibrahim that "'gender is bullshit.' That 'putting on a dress doesn't biologically change anything. Nor does a sex-change.' She said that 'sex-reassignment is physically impossible. All you can do is adopt these superficial characteristics but the biology will never change.'" That realization, Ibrahim suspects, was the likely source of her deep wells of emotional torment"

Also says in the article that he never had any intention of chopping off his penis as he was very well endowed.

Using the he pronoun here as in the death announcement the Family made it clear that he was living as a man once more.

""Our brother Robert, who became our brother Alexis, who became our sister Alexis, who became our brother Alexis [has] passed," began his announcement"

Michelleoftheresistance I wish MN had a like button so I could like your post!

There is a lot one can do without publicly and openly challenging TRAs.
I hope that young people who don't buy into the TWAW mantra and who would want to see women's rights protected are willing to demonstrate this at the ballot box, in emails to MPs, in filling in public consultations, boycotting venues and businesses where possible and so on.

Politicians and TRAs like to frame opposition to gender identity ideology as some sort of 'generational' thing. Young people have ways to make this very clear that this isn't the case without posting a single thing on social media to alert their woke peers.

if the word "woman" is redefined to include males, the opportunities intended to help adult human females achieve their potential in society become open to people who don't suffer the problems they are there to offset.

Dead right, Blibbyblobby. Your whole comment explained this issue very clearly.

Like Rachel Dolezal, the white American woman who claimed to have African heritage and took positions intended for black people.

She genuinely longed to be black and may have convinced herself she was. Yet no one has any problem understanding why her actions were wrong. So why does anyone think it's OK for men to do the same to women?

Thanks for all your responses - I really needed to hear some reassurance after listening to the latest High Low episode where they recommended I listen to Munroe Bergdorf and Juno Dawson and pay money to watch Seahorse