Talking with teenage daughters

[Cakeytea]

Hi All,

This post ended up a bit of an outpouring. Summary at the bottom.

I am a lurker here and tend not to comment. I've been following and learning about the gender critical viewpoint for a while now and agree with many of the sentiments here although I am maybe more moderate than some. I tend not to get involved with debates with people in real life about this subject for a number of reasons but occasionally will meet someone with similar views and it is a pleasant surprise. My feminism is a mixed bag and I am quite ambivalent about a lot that goes on in all strains of feminism but someone once told me even if I don't think of myself as a feminist, I talk like one 🤣

I have three teenagers, 2dd's and a ds. I am subtly trying to guage their thoughts about transgenderism in school and their beliefs about trans rights and womens rights. My 17yr old dd is discovering feminism for herself. I try not to tell them what to think or really steer them on many things except general good manners and respect for others and I don't see this subject as an exception. (Although, tbf, I am quite vocal about dismantling the 'sex work is work' crap that I seemed to miss the birth of - I couldn't actually belive people argue this until I saw it with my own eyes!!!!)

However, the subject of JKR came up last night and the 17year old virtually spat out 'I don't want to be like her she's really problematic'. We have talked about cancel culture before and they are unlikely to boycott HP which they enjoy. I pointed out JKR was just sticking up for women and it wasn't transphobic but DD was having none of it. Younger daughter agreed. She spouted loads of stuff about tokenism in her writing and making Dumbledore gay to look liberal but not going far enough etc etc. I could literally hear her just parroting someone elses take!!!
Anyway, I dropped it. This isn't the first time, I tried a couple of days ago when something else came up. I asked her if there wasn't something in the GC argument for women's sports and against self ID but she couldn't see it. She was deeply uncomfortable and spouted the "just be kind" line and said the numbers are too small to make it important and 'it's hard enough for them already'.

A big part of what has peaked transed me is seeing two daughters of friends transitioning (just socially at present). Both are autistic, deeply unhappy, with severe mental health problems (although having PTSD myself and my own struggles I don't like how MH problems are often weaponised in this discussion). My point is transitioning hasn't helped them but children's mental health services are broken and virtually non existent. DS is autistic and struggles and it really makes me so unhappy that autism advocacy groups swallow the transgender thing unthinkingly. Although, I genuinely believe, like all social contagions (anorexia in my day) it will blow itself out relatively quickly.

I don't want to fight with my daughter, as I have said, I tend not to be political about much and let them be. But I do worry about her going to Uni soon. She is bright, articulate, alternative and wonderful but I worry about her doing a degree where she falls hard for post structuralist analysis and queer theory. I was in the middle of a degree in Anthropology myself when coronovirus stuck. A module on gender made me realise all is not right with the world and I still haven't worked out how to navigate it for myself. I am fairly left wing economically but feel so alienated by idpol I can't see the left recovering. When did class analysis stop being a thing? I feel like a dinosaur at Uni to the point that I might give up.

For those of you with teenagers, what are your boundaries for discussing stuff when it comes up?
Anyone with kids going to Uni to study English Lit (her current preferred subject) or a social science? What are your thoughts about the current state of affairs in academia? How do we at least give them access to counter arguments without looking like dinosaurs (in their eyes)?

Any academics here know how to navigate the craziness, ie idpol, post structural and pomo analysis gone too far (it had it's place but now seems to be, 'lets just dismantle (queer) everything because we can and it's fun', not because we gain anything by it.

Summary, a couple of discussions with teenage DD around womens rights/ trans rights have not gone well. We agreed to disagree. What do you do in your households? Anyone else worried about Uni for their children and choosing a Uni that isn't so woke all critical thinking is lost?

Well done for anyone who read the whole thing, I'm like pringles, once I pop I just can't stop 🤣

History is a good subject, especially social history.

If it helps you decide between different history departments, quite a few academic historians have a strong social media presence. A certain historian at Sheffield, for example, is very dogmatic about certain issues but who knows what her colleagues are thinking? Remember, academic freedom is enshrined in law in the UK, and the EHRC has clearly said that students must tolerate being exposed to views they might find offensive. I'd straight up ask about this at open days.

I've had some success with the Socratic method with my early twenties woke dd. If she were to say that JK Rowling is problematic, I'd ask what she means. Get her to explain it. I'm sure transphobia would come up. I'd ask what that is. What should JK Rowling have said that wouldn't be problematic or transphobic? This takes practice. It's hard to overcome the urge to just sputter incoherently about how ridiculous gender ideology is.
My dd and I have not talked about JK Rowling yet, we appear to be in an unspoken standoff.

I like the Socratic method too, but it's not much use if the person you want to start thinking critically is completely refusing to engage because they've already clocked you as heretical. That's the bit my sister's struggling with. Fortunately her younger daughter's happy to listen to both sides and make her own mind up, but her elder daughter refuses to be drawn on any of it.

Perhaps it's better to not force a conversation then?
I don't expect my DD or my DSD to agree with everything I say or to be interested in everything I am interested in.
My own views around feminism and women have changed over the years and I expect with continue to change. We're not in the same place.

@Chiochan

This subject has impacted my relationship with my daughters. One is the epitomy of a wanabe woke priestess (the penny has not dropped for her yet that its only really the priests who count but hayho) she works for amnesty, you get the picture. I sent them both to girl only secondary schools so they would miss out on the horendous misognystic bullying that I endured, and maybe this is one of the reasons they dont realise how badly men really hate women. I brought them up tobe compassionate independant thinkers and struggle to forgive them for being so cowardly and thoughless and cruel in throwing women and girls under the bus.

Like @Chiochan my teen DDs have gone to an all girls' school, part of my preference was that they would avoid much of the teenage misogyny. This may bave backfired because they as Chiochan says, they may not realise how much the world is skewed against women. Yet.

On the positive side, both DDs are gay and school is a mostly positive environment in this regard.

However, they twigged really early on that I am GC (before they came out to me), as I was vociferous in my defense of women-only spaces.

Since they came out, we all studiously avoid transgender discussions, so as not to upset each other. Apparently discussion = confrontation, and they do not want to hate me for my views

My DDs assume that I have no sympathy whatsoever with transgendered people, but during a recent talk I did manage to make it clear that I do fully support a person's right to dress how they want, be how they want (pretty much what JKR said, yay!). Without eroding women's rights. That time I did not get shouted down.

JKR has come up with DD1 this week, but again we've skirted the whole issue because they have fully accepted the TRA argument.

Like @AbsintheFriends says, my DDs are experiencing these issues on a personal level (they have plenty of friends who are transitioning (all girls to boys....) or who are not comfortableto come out to their families), whilst I'm viewing it through almost an academic/ theoretical level. So it's emotive for us in different ways.

I have no wise words unfortunately. Part of me hopes that as they grow up and experience sexism and misogyny for themselves, they will understand the importance and necessity of women's rights. I know that sounds terribly patronising - "just wait until you're old enough", but it's not meant to be, it's just the passage of time and experience outside of their teen bubble.

I personally do still bring up this topic as it comes up in the news, but I do reiterate my genuine belief that everyone has a right to live as they want, as long as they don't hurt others. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

I can't force them to agree, so I try to have an environment where they know we can talk about things and not dismiss each other's views, and hope for time to work its magic and for them to learn.

When age appropriate of course - but to discuss the impact of being a girl and woman on the lives of women and girls. And the need to acknowledge the biological reality of this.

Maternal deaths
Child marriage
FGM
Sex trafficking
Yazidi girls
Missing millions of women/girls due to sex selection abortion.
Femicide in places like Mexico
Life imprisonment for miscarriage in El Salvador.

Perhaps discuss if these subjects come up
on the news??? Not all suitable for you girls to mention - but so many girls experience and would
love to ID out.

Social history - yes - UK law - women previously had to up jobs/property etc once married. Rape in marriage legal until recently etc.

Sport- Pictures Laurel Hubbard on the podium and your DDs opinions on the women on the podium denied championships, medals, sporting opportunities etc. Where is the fairness / kindness to these women?

Films...Made in Dagenham/Suffragettes/Philomena etc? Then a general discussion after...?

Another thing that I found helpful to tackle is the 'Karen' myth that our daughters all seem to have willingly absorbed from social media, that older women are hysterical pearl-clutchers, who overreact massively to an imaginary threat to our safe middle class world.

After my dd called me a 'white feminist' (by which I think she meant all the above) I told her about the Lucy McDonagh/Deptford project thing, which gave her a different perspective of the TRAs as privileged white kids identifying into marginalisation. I think, more than any other single thing, that gave her pause for thought.

Info in this piece if you scroll down. www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

And - as an afterthought to that thing about the TRA/privileged white kids and their own experience of this 'on the ground' as it were, I think that struck a chord with my dd as she recognised the 'everyone pay attention to me, I'm a bit more special than you' dynamic in people who identify as 'most vulnerable'...

I found my daughter willing to reconsider after hearing and understanding the simple statement that TRA are endorsing gender stereotypes and GC are challenging them.

I meant to add - useful to discuss issues which affect women and girls without relating it to the Trans issues.

I have a similar problem with my youngest. She told me I was a transphobe. I said I have a lot of time for LGB issues and pointed her in direction of the new Alliance group but believed that the rest of the letters don't mean anything much.

I also asked her to think of the creepiest man she knows and imagine having to share a toilet space with him on her own just because he tells you he's a woman.

A very blunt instrument I know but a starting point for discussion.

Thanks for posting that AbsintheFriends.

I wouldn't show it to younger teenagers, but the MtF forum on Reddit is a useful educational tool for anyone who isn't completely ostrichlike on this subject. Or r/itsafetish which collects some of the "best bits."

When you read in their own words what transwomen believe being a woman is... it's incredibly offensive to women, but also incredibly enlightening.

Cakeytea

I had this discussion with my daughter this weekend. I was up front in that I told her that I was concerned that she was getting so much of her information from her friends and that she was basing her opinions on these and the meme's she sees. We have been working with her to approach concepts and ideas with critical thinking. However, she is a young teenager and she is not looking at balanced information regarding this due to ‘be kind’. So, I told her that she should make up her own mind, but gave her the opportunity to tell me her views.

It was a very long conversation and we covered discrimination (women’s and trans), sports (using Dr Emma Hilton’s research), how there was an article detailing the tactics that were encouraged to get to this point and how crazy it felt that they were allowed…. But shame and guilt was very well manipulated. We covered the no debate, the misogyny, I glossed over fetishes coming under the umbrella as she has come across furries before, the rejection of the detransitioners, their stories and the fact there were NO stats about them (why?). I covered off the stats and research into the prevalence of male pattern violence and that transwomen do not reflect female’s statistics at all.

I showed her JK’s tweets and asked her if she felt it was appropriate that she received such horrific abuse for them.

And towards the end, we discussed how the 'if you play with these toys and do this activity, then you are...' has been pushed and the barbie and ken spectrum. It was actually at this point where she twigged that this does not show consistency in acceptance for non-conformity that the lobby groups are supposed to advocate for. I gave her the 4000% rise in girls at clinics and that lobby groups don’t want this researched. As a person who has put up with being constantly told by other girls that she is not girly for the past few years, she has been very thoughtful ever since.

I don't expect my daughter to have the same opinion as me, but I do want her to understand that things are not always what they seem and to look at motivations of groups involved etc. Especially in regards to women being shut down, research being hindered, and the hidden agendas of lobby groups that had a deliberate strategy to drive acceptance and using young transpeople as a tool to do this.

Good luck...

DS said word for word the same thing about JKR - ‘I think she has a lot of problematic views’.

I said something like ‘Goodness, has she? What sort of thing?’ (I’d mentioned her, but just to say that I was moved by the backstory of abuse).

He said he didn’t know exactly, but that her views were definitely problematic.

Then he said that as a good little literature student, he should probably find an exact quote, shouldn’t he?

Wonder what he’ll come back with.

My first post in feminist. For context I am a long term lurker single parent to teen teenage daughters.

I have always struggled with the concept of gender conformity and was never happy in my body as a young girl and the attention this drew once I reached puberty. My childhood involved a very strict father full of male aggression and violence towards my mother. To the point that my mother slept in my bed for year whilst they were going through a divorce. This was after I had intervened at the age of 10 years to stop my father from strangling her.

My father was very much boys can play and get dirty and girls are to be good and obedient. Raising my girls I went the opposite way and never enforced the gender roles of girls or boys. Toys included a range of items, including garages, train sets and cars. One DD loved Thomas the tank and would take her Thomas lunch box to nursery school.

We also shopped through ranges of girls and boy clothes ignoring the labels, focusing just on what items they wanted to wear.

I am an advocate of being inclusive and kind, however emphasis strongly this is never to be at the expense of their boundaries. As they grew I've shared some of my experiences with them of the male entitlement, abuse and aggression I have been victim to . Statistically it is more than likely DDS will experience this at some point and I wanted them to be prepared and to never feel that this is their fault. I also wanted to try and empower them that it was ok to say no and that if that it was always ok to walk away from something that they felt uncomfortable with.

One of these experiences, was when I was thirteen and sat on the top decker of an empty the bus. All other seats free and an adult male in his late 30's boarded. He came to the top deck, saw me and sat next to me. I was too scared to do anything and sat for the remainder of the journey next to this man until my stop. This opened many discussions on their safety and their right to not have to sit quietly, but to move downstairs.

Sorry for the back history, but I wanted to give a background of where we are now.

One DD is currently being diagnosed for Autism and has informed me she is a lesbian. She has suffered with her mental health from the end of primary school through secondary. Both have trans friends and are brilliant defenders of them, whilst others have been unkind and unsupportive. So much so, one friend had to move to another school. DD's still have contact and meet up to this day.

We have had many discussions about self ID and the importance of sex based rights. We have looked and talked through Stone walls trans umbrella, discussed how they want to remove sex as a protected characteristic and looked at how mermaids provide images of GI Joe and Barbie as a gender spectrum. One dd said she was a middle 5 and the other a firm 9 towards GI Joe. Both acknowledge that had their childhood been different that they could have also wanted to transition.

We have read JKR twitter and her (fabulous!) open letter. All three of us are in agreement that her words were supportive and full of empathy. We also read through Mermaids response. This was met with exasperation. We are also currently reading DR Jessica Taylor women are blamed for everything. All of which has provided us with some brilliant conversations.

Both of my daughters are sympathetic and supportive of trans rights but are definitely in the camp of gender critical. Be whoever you want to be but do not conform to gender roles and expect to walk in to the sex class of females.

I've always enjoyed challenging both mine and their thinking. Reading both perspectives to make informed decisions based around facts. To always check the source/information provided and not to believe everything they read, but to discover the truth for themselves.

Looking back I hope that I have not influenced them to my side of thinking. I want them to have free, independent minds.

Saying that both DDs are manga and anime fan girls and love cosplay.
This is the one thing I roll my eyes and inwardly cringe over.

It's such an important issue that you raise. I have a child about to begin secondary school and I want to chat with her about this. She's very 'Be Kind' and I like that but I can see how she gravitates to slogans. Course she does -she's 12. But then I think slogans have really created a lot of problems for society

Just wanted to reply and say thank you for all your thoughts. Sorry, I'm not replying individually but have read every reply with gratitude. I'm still not sure how much to push my luck but am bouyed by the range of experiences here. Also want to say what a lovely bunch you all are

This is for all of you

I'd start with her language. Ask her if she believes non binary people are valid.

If she says yes, gently point out that for every non-binary teenager she knows there is a 50 year old walking around who had to deal with far worse sexism but at a time when "non binary" wasn't even a word.

So every teenager who didn't feel that woman encompassed her experience, or flinched a bit when people said "girls can" "girls can't" had to deal with that herself and didn't have a word that said "that's not me".

The main way most women dealt with that was feminism and the way we handled it was by "widening the bandwith of what it meant to be a woman" (ht Alex drummond )

Then, years ago when women questioned the transgender narrative they were told they didn't feel gender because they were CIS so their gender must align with their sex.

But then young teenage women (who felt exactly the same way as those other older women a generation earlier) decided that to not feel gender was "non binary". But by then creating a non-binary vs everyone else they shrank the bandwidth of the word women again
.
Woman now means feminine/ girly/ cis/ someone who accepts their gender as it has ironically been imposed on them by the TRA movement, despite never having felt gender

And women lost the ability to define their experience after years of fighting for it. AND to make it all worse those women are looking back on their lives and the sexist experiences they had and they know those things happened because they were female. And they know that girls who call themselves non binary or trans won't be able to opt out of any of this shit.

And so it's older women who are trying to be fucking KIND. Because their daughters are identifying as non binary in far larger numbers than boys.

They who have lost the word woman because it no longer represents them.

I think there are a lot of young people who throw the word "privilege" around without any sort of understanding. I spend a lot of time around uni students and they perceive people older than them as having a privilege that they don't have. They don't see the sexism, the racism, the homophobia that all the "old people/boomers" (those over thirty) have had to handle and that their entire lives have been shaped by those experiences.

I don't think you will win by getting in to the other stuff as "be kind" will always be the answer. Use her language and show her how actually it's "CIS TERFS" who have lost all their identity.

Some great ways to handle the problem here, in particular @NoraEphronsneck and @Winesalot

I have 3 teen dds and the trans subject comes up quite a lot. My girls know its a bit of a pet subject of mine and went through a time thinking I was trans phobic. I have slowly turned them around by pointing out the unfairness of much of it. A Transwoman of 50 winning business woman of the year for instance when a few years earlier she was a man and has never had to take a day off for a bad period. Girls loosing out on sports scolarships. Trans boxers hitting women. They know that most trans women have penises and things like the story of the transwoman perading an erect penis around a women's refuge struck home.

The other thing that gets through to them is pointing out how the trans movement is anti gay. That children are being transitioned just because they don't conform the gender stereotypes. I think the anti-gay part hits home to the woke youth easier than the anti-feminist stance.

Really interesting and useful suggestions.
I have 2 teenage DS- one at univ and one in 6th form. Both are GC and we have no problem discussing for some reason.

Uni DS is GC but I think at uni he keeps opinions to himself generally anyway, very introvert. We were having a really good chat after dinner the other night (rare for us to talk so much) and he mentioned that he suddenly got when I talked about ‘male privilege’ in his shared house. He likes going out for a walk, in the evening, on quiet paths etc and one night the whole house went for a stroll in the countryside bit - the two girls in the house said they really enjoyed the walk, it was so nice to go out to the middle of nowhere like that - but normally they would never dare being female - and that night they could as the lads were accompanying them. My DS has never given this a thought before.

My 6th form DS is very GC and likes to jokingly talk about the 999 genders or however many there are. He’s the opposite of liberal at the mo. We’ve looked at pics of trans sports people - looking at the difference in physiology. Discussed whether Usain Bolt, wearing a swishy blond wig should be allowed to compete in the women’s 100m final if he now felt like a woman.

I also have a DD still at primary school. I’m trying to gently say the odd thing. Sometimes there is a trans woman on tv. There was on Pointless the other day. We discussed the clothes and makeup worn - ie why did this person wear lots and lots of makeup and a tight fitting dress - no problem in what one chooses to wear but wearing that outfit does not make a person a woman - I wear a baggy T-shirt , tracksuit trousers, no make up often and no one would ever think I was male. I always say everyone can choose what they wear but it doesn’t change their sex. I’m very happy for boys to wear a skirt if they want etc and that’s fine.

I want her to not always ‘be kind’. The PP above who mentioned sitting alone on the bus and then a man sitting next to her struck a chord with me, as that would happen to me when younger and I was too shy and polite, didn’t want to offend. I would like to have known when younger that I could have got up in that situation and moved etc.

I keep an eye out as to what they are learning at school for PSHE - I have started asking for the lesson plans. I talk I suppose about the facts of sex - male and female, sperm and egg required for a baby. I do say it is not possible to change sex XX to XY or vice versa despite what it looks like on the outside. We read the Goodnight stories for Rebel Girls- all about role model women. I flounder a lot I know. I hope when DD is a teenager we can still talk. I find it all very scary.

There's a new guided therapy group for parents of gender dysphorics of any age which can be accessed by registering with www.parentsofrogdkids.com, which might take a bit of time because of the authentication.

My own learning disabled daughter is 22 now, we knew she was particularly challenged from when she was young, but with the pressures of life had no idea that the trans phenomenon existed till a year ago when our daughter came out with her new identity.

So I have helped with galvanising parents into better mental health to cope with this craziness.

I have never explored mumsnet before. You have been having some great conversations. Sorry I was never aware!