Counter argument to this article please.

[jellybe]

blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

Does anyone have a useful proper scientific argument to this article. Just been told that I need to read this as my understand of xx and xy is simplistic and insulting and some women have higher levels of T due to PCOS (no shit Sherlock but they are still women hence the polycystic ovaries I should know as I'd be one of them)

I've read the article and it seems to be using intersex with out naming it as intersex as an argument (please correct me if I'm wrong) but any articles that you have would be great.

Thanks

@BlueBooby
I find that SA article quite chilling. Its the jump between 'some men/women share some aspects of their brain with what we consider typically female/male' to therefore its a trans brain.

@TehBewilderness

As far as I'm aware the intersex community has not been flooded with hate for saying:

*It’s also important to understand the differences between these two groups because in spite of some similarities they face many different struggles, including different forms of discrimination. The differences between transgender and transsexual and intersex have been understood by lawmakers in countries such as Australia where lawmakers have publicly acknowledged that people with intersex conditions have distinct needs from people who identify as transgender or transsexual.

People who identify as transgender or transsexual also face discrimination and deserve equality. We also believe that people with intersex conditions and folks who identify as transgender or transsexual can and should continue to work together on human rights issues; however, there are important differences to keep in mind so that both groups can work toward a better future.*

When if you replace 'intersex' with 'female' its exactly what JKR said

Sex is binary because there are only two gametes

Male - sperm
Female - egg.

Get them to name a third. Or the inbetweeny ones.
Intersex is a misnomer. It's DSD - disorders of sexual development.

@jellybe

The person who I was discussing with has now flounced - this was after I shared a page from the nhs.

Trying not to let it piss me off that they have tried to make it look like I've bullied them off the discussion as I wasn't willing to be educated by them ( I wouldn't sit down and just shut up) with their final post asking Cis people to refute the science I was sharing.

You were never going to convince him/her. It's all about the lurkers and the quiet paricipants on that page who will have read the links and arguments. They also witnessed you not sitting down or shutting up and the sky not falling in.

That's true. I wasn't expecting too change their mind I guess I stupidly thought that they would show me the same curtesy I was showing them in reading their articles/ engaging with their concerns etc. But just got trite replies.

Oh well here's hoping that it will have helped someone else.

The trite replies and failure to engage shows everyone else what is old style religious dogmatism and what is genuine liberalism.

@BarbieandKenBruce I know exactly what you mean. I have that article saved because when that study was first published it was used by many as proof that trans individuals have the "wrong brain" for their body, whereas Guillemon does not say that and alludes to other causes of brain differences rather than innate gender.

@TorkTorkBam

The trite replies and failure to engage shows everyone else what is old style religious dogmatism and what is genuine liberalism.

Tork

I think this is a very interesting point because many of the central tenets of identity politics are like articles of faith.

I grew up in a deeply religious environment. Gender identity politics feels the same to me.

Yes the “wrong brain” argument is very flawed as well. Of course within the female sex and the male sex, there will be a range of differences in the brain. Some brains of males might be more typically like those of the average female. In fact that’s likely given that all brains have variations, like other body parts.

But a male person with some more typically female brain features might not consider themselves trans. In fact maybe they feel themselves to be typically male. Even if those female brain features are linked to some kind of perceived “femininity”, such as being a camp gay man, he might still consider himself male - like so many gender non-conforming people who recognise that not being limited by gender stereotypes doesn’t mean you’re somehow not your own sex.

So, if you’re saying a “different sexed” brain is evidence of being genuinely trans, then what of the people who have the brain features but want to keep their sex identity? Do they have to be forced out of their sex=based spaces and made to be trans?

It also would mean that you can only be accepted as trans if you pass the brain test. So no need for self-ID then!

And all this is if you can even trust these types of brain measurement “findings” which are notoriously inconsistent and disagreed on among scientists.

This twitter thread

twitter.com/wet_hen/status/1213130009814036485?s=19

Gender identity politics feels the same to me

That's an interesting point. It has a liturgy, which is a tautology and can't be questioned. TWAW. It has martyrs and heretics. There is some kind of 17th century puritan echo to much of it.

Thanks sunset that breaks it down nicely.

I've never thought about this before, I (stupidly, sorry, I'm learning to challenge the Kool Aid) always thought that if brains weren't male and female, that proved we could be either.
But actually, now I think about it, that's as stupid as saying men have "male" livers or "male" intestines or "male" pancreases. Aside from size being bigger, there's no difference.
Because those things are irrelevant to sexual dimorphism. We are a highly dimorphic species. But the dimorphism is basically very specific areas. Reproductive organs. Mammary glands. Linked (as someone above pointed out) to the fact there are only two gametes.
The article posted above "An open letter to the guy on Twitter" I have bookmarked and if I'm feeling brave I'll share it on FB because it makes so much sense.

It's weird isn't it that if someone says their brain doesn't match their body, a lot of people seem to accept it to be true and think the person has a terrible affliction.

The oppression of women has been codified into law for hundreds of years based on the male/female brain myth.
The bigger male has the bigger brain and is therefor smarter and stronger. The smaller female has the smaller brain and is therefor foolish and weak.
It doesn't seem to matter how many times reality debunks these myths the zombie lies never die.
Now a new version of the brain myths invented to oppress women are being used to justify drugging and surgically altering our children.
One step forward, two steps back.

C** is an offensive term, it does not describe me nor any other woman (or man).

I am not a subset of something a man has decided he is. I am a woman. Woman = adult human female.

It’s their term, made up to fit their agenda. Using it legitimises it.

(Just posting this whenever I see it mentioned as it’s a very important point.)

Yes Tork gender ideology is a cult. Based on magical thinking, anti-scientific nonsense and negation of biological fact and material reality.

Transwomen are Women

Body and Blood of Christ
(transubstantiation)

Another cult-like aspect is how anyone who disagrees must be banished, cut off, cancelled or shunned. Just to engage in a discussion with a GC person is a betrayal. It's like a religion that is also the ideology of a totalitarian state.

@TehBewilderness

Intersex organizations and people have asked pseudo scientists repeatedly to stop using them to justify misogyny.

can you link me to which ones?