Can someone explain what's radical about a 'terf'?

[bathsh3ba]

I've been reading and trying to educate myself about what's going on in the current trans rights v women's rights debate and it strikes me that calling people who oppose self-ID 'trans-exclusionary RADICAL feminists' is somewhat odd. Surely wanting self-ID is the radical position and the opposite position is more conservative with a small 'c' than radical. Is this just a gaslighting tactic on their behalf or am I unaware of some definition of radical feminism? (This is entirely possible as I freely admit I've never read much about feminism until recently.)

It seems to me so obvious that a trans woman is different from someone who was born a woman.

I feel like a dog with a bone at the moment, but it bears repeating.

When you use "trans woman" to describe male people who believe themselves to be female, you're leaving me with no way in which to describe myself in this brave new world in which we find ourselves.

There are women who meet the descriptor trans, who are made completely invisible in this whole debate, because we don't claim to be men yet we're not allowed to claim both 'trans' and 'woman'.

A transwoman is obviously different to someone who was born a woman; they're of different sex classes. A trans woman - an adult-human-female-who-meets-the-descriptor-'trans' - is no different to any other woman in this respect.

When you use "trans woman" to refer to male people, you're erasing actual women with 'trans' experience.

@TyroSaysMeow

I'm not entirely sure I follow your meaning here and I'm definitely not familiar with all the terminology as I'm new to this debate.

I understand trans woman to mean someone who was born male and identifies as/lives as female. And I understand trans man to mean someone who was born female and identifies/lives as male. If you mean something else by trans woman then please explain.

If we mean the same thing, then I can't agree with you that the only difference between a trans woman and someone who was born a woman is sex class. If you haven't grown up female, you've had a different lived experience and you simply can't understand what it is to grow up female.

Being a woman is a combination of biology, lived experience and social constructions. A trans woman can take on some parts of womanhood but not all of them. And thus will always be different from someone who is born a woman. This isn't me erasing anyone (how on earth does one person have that power anyway), it's just a statement of fact.

And trans people would have more support from me if they stopped trying to make me say something I don't believe and never will believe and focused instead on how trans women and women can live side by side without infringing on each others' rights, because it really ought to be possible.

I would never raise this with a trans person if they didn't raise it with me. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. But I'm also not going to be made to say something I believe to be a lie, and a dangerous one at that.

TyroSaysMeow Oh!!!
So trans women ARE women!!! They are also transmen.
Grammatically TWAW is correct then but means something else and not what the TRA say.

You learn something new every day!!

I'm not entirely sure I follow your meaning here and I'm definitely not familiar with all the terminology as I'm new to this debate.

The Other Side are deliberately obfuscatory, so I'm not surprised if it's confusing!

If you mean something else by trans woman then please explain.

I mean someone born female (ie a woman) who meets the descriptor "trans", but does not identify as a transman or man.

What I actually mean is: as a female person with a whole host of gender issues that meet the definition of dysphoria, but who nevertheless is damned sure she's a woman, what do you propose I call myself, since you've accepted males' stealing of the obvious term?

@TyroSaysMeow well if you're female and are sure you are a woman, and do not identify as a man, then surely you're a woman and don't need the 'trans' prefix? Not sure why gender dysphoria necessarily means you need to be called 'trans'. Can't you just be a woman seeking treatment for gender dysphoria, since you say that is what you have?

No, bathsh3ba, because if I describe myself as a woman based on my biology I'm identified as a terf. The rape and death threats follow soon after.

I'm not sure which definition of "trans" you're using, but it sounds like it's tied up around 'rejecting one's sex class membership'.

Personally I'd find it quite helpful, when the topic of trans rights is being discussed, to be permitted to lay claim to that label, because otherwise my experiences and opinions are dismissed as the terven witterings of a cishet bigot. It's an adjective that indicates my relevant experiences, not a statement about my sex or 'gender identity'.

Can't transwomen just be men seeking treatment for gender dysphoria? It would make things a damned sight easier for actual female women.