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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I GC? Where to find info

37 replies

Pinkyyy · 10/06/2020 22:41

My first time posting in Feminism so please go easy.

I see things all over the news these days and a lot of it makes me really angry. Often articles that try to say that women's only spaces should be open for men to use etc. I also feel very strongly about being forced to use pronouns and I've even seen people lose their jobs for refusing??

There is a lot of terminology being used that I don't fully understand, and an awful lot of abbreviations. I notice that a lot of the views of people who describe themselves as 'GC' seem to align with my own.

I don't want to stay silent on these matters, but I also don't have the knowledge to speak up on them. I wondered if anyone could point me in the right direction? I enjoy listening to podcasts whilst doing the dishes/driving etc.

OP posts:
ScrimpshawTheSecond · 13/06/2020 20:12
  • or in fact anywhere, really.
Pinkyyy · 13/06/2020 23:26

Thanks for that @LittlePearl

OP posts:
Staffori · 14/06/2020 00:26

This site has links to thousands of articles and videos www.peaktrans.org/

EyesOpening · 17/06/2020 13:28

I've read a lot of stuff recently, so much that I now can't find things I want to look at again, specifically atm the bit in law where it sets out where refuges/toilets/hospital/HCP etc are single sex spaces.
If anyone would kindly oblige to provide me a link, I'd be grateful, thanks, and preferably a few other links to good things for reference e.g.
www.peaktrans.org/
womansplaceuk.org/
thanks

EyesOpening · 28/06/2020 11:42

Hi, me again!
I'm still getting on with my reading but I'm a little unsure about something, so hoping that someone can enlighten me.
So in single sex spaces, refuges toilets etc male born people are not allowed, but if you get GRC you can change your birth certificate, I think, so how does this work please? Plus if you hadn't changed your birth certificate and you'd had appearance altering changes, how would someone know that it was your birth certificate e.g. you call yourself Jane Smith and look like a woman but your birth certificate is in the name of Joe Bloggs?
Thanks

Eo91 · 28/06/2020 12:23

If you're looking for law that protects single sex spaces you're looking for the Equality Act 2010.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

The link is for the full EA2010, the picture is of Schedule 3, Part 7, Single-sex services.

Am I GC? Where to find info
Eo91 · 28/06/2020 12:43

When you're granted a GRC you can apply to get a new birth certificate which confirms the new sex marker and your relevant name.

So when I get my GRC, the F on my current birth certificate would now show as M on the new one and the name on it would be my current name as shown on my deed poll (some people have pretty unisex names so no name change on the birth certificate may be necessary).

The GRC would mean I am legally recognised as a man (even though my biological sex has not changed).

Eo91 · 28/06/2020 12:51

The GRC is a legal fiction. My biological sex hasn't changed, but I am legally recognised as the opposite sex.

What should be happening would be that under the EA2010 exceptions I linked to earlier, although I am legally recognised as a man if there is a male single sex space that where biological men may reasonably object to having a female present there, I can legally be prevented from entering (there's not so many for men, but swap it around and you can understand why this clause is important for women's rights).

nauticant · 28/06/2020 13:17

I think you're asking about how the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA) interacts with the Equality Act 2010 (EA) EyesOpening.

Obviously the GRA was put into law first and enables a legal "changing of sex" so a person could get a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) and change the sex on their birth certificate. This can happen for people who have not undergone any drug or surgical procedures to "change gender".

For this reason when the EA was drafted and put into law to prevent discrimination against people having one of a number of "protected characteristics", it was understood that this would create a conflict of rights in that it would mean there would be male-bodied "women", and allowing them full use of women's single sex spaces and services might not be desirable.

Therefore, although according to the EA it is not permitted in general to discriminate against trans people for being trans (the actual wording is someone having the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment"), the EA specifies that in some special cases discrimination is permitted for "providing separate services for persons of each sex", "providing separate services differently for persons of each sex", and "providing a service only to persons of one sex" if this is done as "a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim".

However, this is vague legal language, it hasn't been tested in the courts, it's in any case a garbled mess (are transwomen with a GRC the same sex as women or a different sex?), and as a result there are conflicting claims made about what the law is supposed to mean and how it's supposed to operate. One problem that results is that the operation of this part of the EA is typically ignored meaning that women's single-sex spaces and services are opened to transwomen without any thought having been given to whether women should be protected.

This is my understanding and if I've got it wrong I'm happy to be corrected.

Eo91 · 28/06/2020 13:26

@nauticant

No corrections needed, you've explained that really well.

EyesOpening · 29/06/2020 11:16

Thanks for the replies, yes I was basically asking how in practice, the single sex spaces can use the law for someone born as the opposite sex but have had their sex changed on their birth certificate, from being allowed access because if they showed their birth certificate as ID, it would say they are the appropriate sex that is allowed to use those facilities.
Also, for the second part of my query, I work somewhere where you sometimes have to establish ID, so if someone hadn't had their BC altered to reflect their new presenting self and they showed me their BC, I would assume that it wasn't theirs and I wouldn't allow further proceedings to take place (until they showed me some other form of acceptable ID), other than further ID how is this resolved so we can proceed? (I haven't come across anyone saying that they're transgender but I have refused to proceed when a man has presented me with a debit/credit card in a female's name

Eo91 · 01/07/2020 02:48

A GRC allows you to apply for a new birth certificate.

At the moment (I personally thinks this needs to be amended) you can get different form of ID changed without a GRC. For example, with a covering letter from a specialist at a Gender Identity Clinic, you can have the sex marker on your passport or driving license changed.

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