Help me educate my husband

[OpenTheCurtainsPleaseDear]

He does agree that trans women shouldn’t be allowed in women’s sports ever and birth certificates shouldn’t be changed. He finds these outrageous. Although does think it’s fine for driving licenses and passports to be changed as it’s awkward at airports when your passport doesn’t match how you present yourself. He thinks trans women should he allowed in women’s prisons if they’ve had the castration. However, he doesn’t think it’s dangerous and unfair to women to have them if toilets, changing rooms, hospitals etc. He says transmen are more of a danger than castrated trans women because they have the artificial penis to rape with. I’ve told him rapes and hidden cameras have increased since mixed sex spaces but he doesn’t believe me. He thinks once castrated, they’re no longer a man, not a woman either but somewhere in between. I’ve also told him about the horrific sexism that goes into schools, mermaids with their barbie & GI joe display, again doesn’t believe me. I’ve tried explaining to him that women and men look different all over the world and different cultures, any argument of what is a woman/man is sexist. He thinks we need to accept sexism as part of the foundation for our society, even if it’s not fair that’s just how it is and it won’t change. It’s easier for someone with gender dysphoria to transition them to say let’s fight these stereotypes. He does believe being trans/ having gender dysphoria is a mental health condition and thinks ‘transitioning’ is the cure, so why shouldn’t we be okay with that? There’s much harder MH issues to deal with. After transitioning very few are still unhappy. I’m sure I’ve seen statistics that show this isn’t the case. It’s different to other dysphorias because it massively hinders a person to have 1 less arm but not to transition. I’ve told him about de-transitioners and he thinks it should be harder to get on this path and that’ll solve it. I’ve told him that some people with weight dysphoria, such as anorexics may at a point believe they’re obese when they’re fitting into children’s sizes, but later, with the right support go on to have a healthier diet and weight and see themselves as healthy. He doesn’t seem to acknowledge this argument. I’ve told him about trans activists who have been threatening women, sexist tweets and how a lot of stuff they come out with you’d expect from a MRA, once again, he doesn’t believe me.

He has however said he’s open to believing me if I can prove it, so that’s why I’m here.

I know I’ve seen articles, statistics and resources here, not daily mail though please he won’t take it seriously, would anyone be so kind as to share them? Or perhaps documentaries I can find on YouTube/Netflix etc? I intend for us to look through this thread together. I couldn’t see another thread like this so apologies if it has been done!

I wish you luck OP. My husband now refuses to discuss it with me. I don't wish to educate my husband merely expose the injustices.

I don't know where I would start, the Break it Down for me thread might help.

I suppose I'd start with the abuse JK Rowling received at the weekend and ask if that was fair and just since she ws poonting our facts and reality...or go back to the beginning of the 'debate' and why it was positioned as #nodebate as it's a freedoms of speech issue as well as a threat to women's rights, safety and dignity.

(You could go back to the Beaumont society and Press for Change or discuss the Big Pharma and billionaires who are behind this too.)

Then I'd discuss Maya F and Fair Cop, Hayden and Scottow, the CPS bullying guidance that is under review as well as the porn-madden content of the sex ed in Warwickshire and the subsequent removal of toolkits up and down the country.

Do you have children, a daughter, a niece?
Why do boys matter more than girls, why do girls have to make space and be kind?
The recent decision to allow 'woman' to mean a man in Scotland means public bodies can be 50/50 men and men who think they are women, should we accept that sexism as a fair grounding in society?

Is is ok for Katie Dowaltowski's victims to have to call him her in court like Maria McLachlan has to?

It's such a broad subject now, it affects everything from language to children's bodies, from education/indoctrination to free speech and eventually I imagine freedom of thought and expression.

I think you're going to have to pick an area and explore that as otherwise it will be a long ramble like my post!

My husband is generally GC but is still on the “well that’s ridiculous and will never happen, what have you been reading... etc etc”

I think most people are decent people, they are sympathetic to trans people and don’t want to see them victimised. It’s easy to oversimplify that some people are always the victims and could never be a risk to anyone else, whereas safeguarding is more complex and needs to protect all people, not one group at the expense of another. A lot of men assume TW have had the full op, they are often more uncomfortable knowing about TW who retain male bodies/features but change their pronouns and gas bill only. Maybe show him the stonewall trans umbrella, that we’re not just talking about gentle transsexuals who have had the op.

Inherently I don’t think men perceive the discomfort a woman might feel about the presence of masculinity in a vulnerable environment (even if your mind is repeating and repeating NAMALT or that TW is just a woman like me I’m perfectly safe). Take that to another level when a woman is extra vulnerable because of previous sexual assault etc.

Also, I think men generally see anyone who opts out of manhood, by default is a woman. They don’t necessarily see the wider effects of the erosion of the meaning of woman because it doesn’t affect them.

There is also the ‘othering’ thing. It’s probably unlikely their sister/daughter might end up in a prison or shelter, but my DH has become more aware of this stuff as our DD approaches high school and puberty. He has become aware of gender dysphoria in teen girls and the affirmation pathways within some schools, nhs and charities, and may be more concerned if she wanted to join the ladies rugby team, start her period in a gender neutral toilet with boys standing outside, had to change for swimming in front of transgirls etc etc. Situations where the sympathy can shift back to the female person iykwim.

I second PP, maybe pick your moment and don’t try to bombard with everything, and be prepared to respectfully agree to disagree on some things.

Just ask what exactly is he - and all other men - is giving up versus what is demanded (very vigorously) or taken from women (often by men).

Ask him if he lost his penis in an accident would he still be a man.

Ask him if he’s happy for your teenage daughter to be forced to strip off in front of a leering teenage boy with an erection, who was allowed into the girls’ changing room simply by claiming he “identifies as a girl” - it doesn’t matter if he’s lying, the school will validate him and throw the girls under the bus.
Tell him over 90% of transgender people keep their penis. That Stonewall includes AGPs in its transgender definition- so men who get a sexual kick from invading women’s spaces, have a free pass into our changing rooms and toilets.

Ask if he’s happy with convicted rapists being housed in women’s prisons, and allowed to share communal showers, resulting in documented sexual assaults.
Ask him why the hell he thinks we have sex segregated facilities in the first place. And why women should be ordered to give them up to please men?

Please don't educate anyone - it's an awful phrase thrown about by a political lobby as a derisive implication that if you don't think what you are told you are stupid and to be dismissed as an inferior.

Explaining your views, or sharing sources and giving them space to reach their own conclusions, isn't the same as training someone 'this is what you must think'. Which is one of many aspects of the political lobby that show immense arrogance, dehumanisation and disrespect for others and really, seriously concerns me.

I think he needs to go back to square one because he has some wrong ideas. His thought pattern is the old version of this debate. Person unhappy with their sex, remove or add penis, problem solved. Its what I'd call transexual, but transgender is a different kettle of fish, because its a about identity, which in this debate is self defined. When anyone can be anything words start to lose meaning, so when women doesn't mean women anymore then how do you protect women. The last women there is very much the dictionary definition. Undermining safeguarding leads to abuse of the most vulnerable, ie women and children.

Gender dysphoria is no longer classed as a mental health issue and now seen more as a sexual dysfunction. In the modern definition of what trans is it is anything you want it to be, there is no need for any feeling of gender dysphoria. Therefore treatment is not always needed so can range from full medical transition ("castration") to absolutely nothing. So unfortunately for him segregating transwomen by having or not having a penis is "transphobic".

In terms of reading Janice Turner is the Times is very good, Debbie Hayton, Sarah Ditum and Hadley Freeman also. Counter arguments Shon Faye, Monroe Bergdorf (Grazia article a few years ago is a classic), Paris Lee.

TV- Channel 4 has two documentaries worth a watch Trans Kids: It's Time to Talk and What Makes a Woman?

Womens Place publish all meetings online.

Youtube- Magdalen Berns always worth a watch. I enjoy Rose of Dawn and her stuff around the NUS and Jess Bradley is very interesting.

This is classic (no spoilers) but might be a good starting point because this sums up what the current ideology is:

There's a couple of philosophical questions that I have for him to ponder;

• Should a rape victim in court be legally compelled to call their attacker by 'her', use 'her penis' if the attacker identifies as female?

-Would it be progress if 50% of MPs were men and 50% women but all the women were transwomen? -Would he consider a transwomen as a sexual partner? -What is the definition of women, without using any stereotyping or circular references? -If a tranwomen was using the same toilets as him would be feel uneasy, vulnerable or act violently towards them? -If you accept the 'born in the wrong body' argument, do you believe in a soul and is that soul gendered? What does gender mean in that situation?

I guess it depends if ‘educate’ means indoctrinate, or help someone to see something that doesn’t directly affect them from the perspective of someone who it does.

I feel that I have definitely been educated a lot by the BLM stuff even though I’ve never considered myself to be prejudiced and thought I had a fair understanding of slavery/colonialism.

It definitely helps if someone’s coming from an angle of seeking to understand a different POV, rather than win an argument.

Start from square one; stop arguing with him. Its not your job to educate him.
There is only one point you need to remember and it is one of basic human rights - yours. Your rights to single sex spaces belong to you. Not your husband. They are not his to give away.

He is mistaken in his belief that trans people have had surgery. Surgery is not needed for people to change their legally declared sex. Most people who transition don't have any surgery at all.

It sounds like a big issue for him is that he is really thinking mainly of people who have had full medical transition. I think maybe one thing to make clear is that does not apply to the majority of trans people.

You might point out the problems with statistics when we record people as the other sex, for example with violent crime stats.

But I would not push this too much - just talk about it and provide more information from time to time. It often takes people a while to work through the ideas.

I personally think you have done lots. I was actually personally happy with mixed sex spaces. [But I know others would be unable to use these] I have no interest in sport and was oblivious to prisons etc until recently.
What got me interested was “acceptance with no exceptions” and “No Debate”.
Over in the real world, of course there should be rules about who is “accepted”, and those rules would be arrived at in the overall interests of ... service users... prisoners and prison workers...voters... school pupils... etc. And of course proposed rules should be published and discussed, quantified, and even “debated”.

There was one channel 4 doc “trans kids: it’s time to talk” which was a small contribution to this and it’s up to your dh whether he watches this. Not everyone’s type of tv and the issue wasn’t “resolved”, it was a contribution only.
But I might want my dh to watch the “making of” commentary from the hired hand making it, Olly Lambert. It’s on you tube as “Olly Lambert - woke news talk”. Again Olly doesn’t know if it’s best to transition children early, but he seems to be a compassionate person and he gives a snapshot of very unusual way this change to our society is being pushed through. With no debate permitted.

First of all, try to stop using the word “educate” as it’s tremendously arrogant. No one wants to engage in a conversation with someone who says they are here to educate them.

Ask him to Google phalloplasty arm scars. This is being done to confused young women.

Then ask him to read destransitioners' and transwidows' accounts of their experiences.

Then suggest he look for discussion boards where men talk about getting their kicks coercing SAs (sales assistants) to help them in their roleplaying games.

Then suggest he read the M&S knickers reviews.

Then menophiliacs' discussions about fiddling with used tampons etc.

Then the accounts of trans women's behaviour in women's prisons and refuges.

Then show the punch-terf / barbed wire baseball bat etc images on Twitter.

Then ask him again if he is really still at ease with your and relatives' and friends' dignity, privacy and safety being compromised.

Thank you everyone, you’ve given me some good starting points. Lots of things to look up! We’ll watch the documentaries together over the next week. My view of education is more traditional, distinctly different from indoctrination which is presently referred to as education. By educate I mean prove the matters he doesn’t believe me on, widen the knowledge we both have on the matter and most importantly, ask ‘why?’. But I appreciate your point, with present use of the word a different choice would be better.

It’s something I’m worried about so do talk about, however I’m not pushing it constantly, he’s specifically asked me to prove it. Rumbus, I’ve had similar comments, he just doesn’t believe it’s the case.

Please don't use 'educate'. It's what all the trans lobbyists (well liberals in general) use and they just mean indoctrinate.

It makes it sound like they are the all-knowing teacher and you the dumb kid that needs to be taught what they say is right.

We've all had educations, explain or demonstrate is much better, personally I find.

A lot of people assume that males have had genital surgery to be transgender when in reality less than ten percent of trans have done so.
They usually spend their money on breast implants and hair removal.

I admire your patience, OpenTheCurtains! If I was having a discussion, presented facts, and was told on the basis of no evidence, "Oh, I don't believe that" I'd have to stop myself from throwing him across the room.

Seriously, I'm very disturbed by that reaction. There's such a concentrated level of arrogance and Dunning-Kruger effect that I'm not sure information can penetrate a skull that thick.

Together with the statement about "sexism is here, get used to it."

To me it sounds a bit like a boatload of motivated reasoning coupled with denial all so he doesn't have to face up to sexism.

You may have a harder time explaining the obvious than you think if his obtuseness is serving a purpose he wouldn't want to articulate.

You may have a harder time explaining the obvious than you think if his obtuseness is serving a purpose he wouldn't want to articulate.

How very well said quixote9

I think some people are a veritable treasure trove of wilful and stubborn misunderstanding when the truth is inconvenient. Actually they understanding things perfectly well but either don't give much of a shit, or actively enjoy the passive aggressive kick of winding the other person up.

You could also try a very simple question: is it really kindness to lie to someone or cowardice?