Legend of Zelda - Accessing female spaces by deception

[LonginesPrime]

DD just explained to me the latest mission she had to solve in Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - she is playing as Link, a male character, and the objective is to get into Garuda, a town that's exclusively female.

The female inhabitants are fiercely protective of their home and are vigilant about visitors. Only females are allowed in. Link needs to gain access but is refused by the guards.

You (as Link) hear about a man who managed to get in there so you have to go and find him.

When you find him, he's dressed as a woman and you have the option of studying his face and asking him if he's a man, etc. The only way to progress the game is to tell him that he's beautiful - when you do this, he offers to sell you some women's clothing and explains that everyone will see you differently when you wear women's clothing.

When you wear the women's clothes, the guards of Garuda think you're female and let you in, so you can go around the shops completing the necessary tasks and interacting with the female inhabitants disguised as a woman.

I know it's 'only a game' and that there's an unreal amount of misogyny in the gaming industry anyway, so I'm not surprised that the female perspective of this issue has been overlooked. But it's still so disheartening that a new generation of young gamers (male and female) is being sent the message that it's ok for men to completely disregard women's rights and boundaries if they conflict with what men want.

Lets look at this from a box pov..if that was a male dominated land how would you feel? What if EVERY character was a male and you were a female would that be homosexual tones then? Or would it still be very male dominated? Or because YOIR the protagonist would that be ok :/ Just look at what your complaining about..you would complain about the opposite too in some way.."because it has no female perspective" yes I'm assuming with it being 2020 and the gaming industry being VERY switched on to the fact that A LOT of women game now that they kind of aim certain games at us as women..really (like you said) for a 10+ game and a 15 year old playing it I think your very lucky that she hasn't seen one of the other games being played by your other teenagers that are overage, you know, where she's "raping and saying the N word"( which has never happened in a game I have EVER played lol and let's be honest she probably has played most ones you'd never let her and are over her age) if your "not censoring" them especially your other teens..as they share games.

www.commonsensemedia.org/game-reviews this may help you..if you don't have the time to look through what your children watch/play. :D it's based on parental star rating of things like fighting drug use sex.. basically some of your gripes with "Legend of Zelda"

MUM, I think you could do with considering whether simply "flipping the sex roles" really works the way you think it does, when the underlying power-dynamic in the society in which the piece of popular culture (a computer game, in this instance) remains unchanged.

You can't write an all-female society of warrior women (the Amazons in Wonder Woman, for example, or its antecedents in ancient literature) against a backdrop of a male dominated society and say naively "well, all I've done is turn the men into women and vice versa, and any power relationships will have been inverted accordingly."

And you don't need to patronise us. Many women on here game quite seriously. Many of us are quite aware of Common Sense Media and similar sites (incidentally, CSM is much less useful than it used to be because there are now loads of supposed "parents" who are in fact teenage trolls and adult gamers of the still-living-in-mums-basement variety who are now posting fake parental reviews - things like reviews for GTA suggesting it's suitable for 5+).

MUM2019MARVEL, I think you've misunderstood my OP and I see we're talking at cross-purposes - I wasn't complaining about the game being male-dominated nor about the lack of female representation.

And no, I don't think that men hanging out together would indicate that they were all gay and I wouldn't complain about 'homosexual tones' in a game...not sure why you think I would...

My issue was with the female perspective not having been considered specifically in relation to a scene where men traverse female boundaries.

And thanks for the patronising link - you put the words "not censoring" in quotation marks when referring to my parenting to deliberately mislead as I never said that, which suggests you're just trying to be goady for some reason anyway.

There is an issue in gaming with misogyny and indeed AGP. It's very disheartening however one glimmer of light in all of this is that the prevalence of TRA in the scene has really woken a lot of men up to the issues. My husband included. Whereas before he was aware of an issue but he didn't have any real life experiences of female erasure, now with TRAs moving into all female tournaments and speed runs and displacing actual female gamers, it has really woken him up and pissed him off. He sees it the crap it is and I have to say the other misogyny is definitely opening his eyes to the extent of the sexism against women.

I've played BotW and love it, but can still see how bits of it are crappy, particularly the Gerudo women. There is good and bad I feel.

Having a male character go into a strictly women only place - kinda gross. A town full of women who govern themselves and are as interesting as any other characters - pretty cool.
I find their outfits a bit sexualised, but they are also very muscular and tough which is nice. I have also seen very sensible criticism of how racism can tie in - these 'exotic' warrior women, but again - it didnt strike me as malicious or intentional. Doesnt make it great but I'm not appalled.

idk. I can see why in isolation it would annoy/concern you but I dont think it was added with malice, just the usual passive sexism in video games from it being male dominated. Zelda is a great character in this game, if you find all the flashbacks particularly, and as video games go I think it's got a lot of great character for kids.

I'm just hoping we can play as Zelda in the next one!

@CaraDune my point wasn't let's flip it and then the problem is solved..it was no matter how a game changes even if into the complete opposite storyline it will never be good enough as there will always be one person that has a problem with it.. I haven't one bit patronised anyone. @LonginesPrime yes but that's 'your' perspective not mine, your assuming that women need someone to speak up about something most wouldn't have a problem with..my point being all along that Legend of Zelda is a very light weight game and is the least of anyone's worries when this year alone we've had..bush fires in Australia that have decimated animals homes ect..Brexit, a pandemic and now this BLM cause to get people treated how they should do anyway? I mean a fricking game is the least of all of your worries, and if anyone actually had a problem with it then your in control of the situation no-one else.

Lets look at this from a box pov..

This is the Feminist and Women's Rights section of Mumsnet so it should come as no surprise to you that we are most likely to view the matter from a feminist and women's rights POV.
You are welcome to dismiss our POV but then the question is WTF are you doing here?

@TehBewilderness yes I know that. It's also a thread about gaming that as you will see from my first comment has got me through some really bad times games aren't all bad for some people viewing them a certain way and thats what I'm standing for in this situation. Not undermining feminist views in general fgs (or is feminist view to say something and everyone else has to jump on the bandwagon or else? I think you'll find not) Also I think you'll find that feminism is standing up for female views and having the right to talk about what you feel needs to be talked about..So (WTF I'm doing here is) standing up for my views I think I'll comment where I want thanks :D have a lovely day!

In a way I think this sort of lack of thoughtfulness is a lack of reflection in gaming stories all round. In a lot of cases, there are just all these things that happen, and the fact is that there is no deeper meaning or even really sense to it.
The business about dressing up as a woman and passing without a problem (or a chicken) is an example of that. It's just a thing you need to do to get to the next thing.

So it's non-reflective because it appeals to people who like that kind of "story" and is maybe made by them as well. And most players are male so that will be reflected as well. Though with Link he's an established character so the story is going to be oriented to a male.

As an aside I've just stopped playing Witcher as the misogyny is so bad I just can't play it and I love the actual gameplay sad

It's clearly the skew of the game writers, because I've been working my way through the books, and they're tremendously feminist! There's a lot less of the 'whoreson' swearing and prostitutes wandering around in the books - and of course you can't see the costumes (although occasionally they are described, and sometimes the female sorcerers are described as having revealing costumes, but it's done in a way that they're doing it for various reasons, rather than lasciviously described).

Well, that's me told.

Gerudos have been Zelda characters since 1998 though, in OoT. They're basically an all female desert dwelling race. Men are excluded from their town, hence dressing as a woman. I have my doubts they're a tra plot. I can't verify they weren't dreamt up by an AGP, but seems fairly unlikely.
If you want seriously disturbing portrayals of females, ask her about the fairies in this version of Zelda. Beyond freaky.

And Witcher is fucking grim. Collecting 'conquest' cards? Utterly vile.

It's slightly problematic, but it is clear that some of the women see through the "disguise".

I also have a different take on Link saving Zelda: Link collapsed in the early battle and Zelda has held the "big bad" at bay for 100 years, just needs Link's help to finally overcome him. To me that makes Zelda the stronger character with more endurance. Link is just the flashy one who turns up and makes the most noise.

And Witcher is fucking grim. Collecting 'conquest' cards? hmm Utterly vile.

That I have entirely missed - I'm playing the Witcher 3 (The Wild Hunt) and I spent some time in The Witcher 2 - I think they're from an earlier (and clearly much more sexist) version of the game - and definitely not in the books (which I wasn't expecting to enjoy as much as I did)

Im old, and usually play games that are five years old, due to time/money. It probably was Witcher (i.e. Witcher 1)
But basically you shag a woman, and receive a card with her posing on it, and have to collect sets... I wasn't v impressed with that part, even though other parts, puzzles to solve etc were good.

@InfiniteSheldon

As an aside I've just stopped playing Witcher as the misogyny is so bad I just can't play it and I love the actual gameplay

Really? Witcher 3? It's set in a feudal society, i didn't see anything out of the ordinary for that. What are you referring to specifically? The prostitutes?

I mean everyone in the game is an asshole essentially, including Geralt, so I dont think women are portrayed particularly negatively.

Come to think of it, at one point in the game Geralt & mates get very drunk and dress up in Yen's clothes.
No one would mistake them for women.

I just had to complete a distasteful quest in AC unity where I liberate some sex trafficked women from a brothel..... only to then give them to the marquis de sade so they can work in his brothel? I was fucking pissed.