Court of Appeal ruled that the Government does not have a positive obligation under Article 8 ECHR to provide unspecified sex/gender “X” passports

[stumbledin]

The Court of Appeal has handed down judgment in an appeal brought by a non-gendered person, Christie Elan-Cane, challenging the Government’s policy not to issue non gender-specific “X” passports to non-gendered, non-binary and other trans persons who do not identify as, or exclusively as, male or female.

www.blackstonechambers.com/news/r-christie-elan-cane-v-secretary-state-for-home-department/

(Sorry haven't had time to check if this is the case that was in the news last year or another one)

Well, they've done this in Germany for years and it has worked fine.

Transpeople should be issued ID based on trans status eg an "X" or "T" status rather than insisting everyone pretends they have actually changed sex, in my opinion.

In this case, the female person had a hysterectomy and mastectomy. It's a Shame they felt they had to do that but it's better they have "X" instead of "Male" on their passport.

That seems like common sense to me, because our passports record our chromosomal and observed sex, female or male, and not our gender.

I googled Christie Elan-Cane because I hadn't heard the name before and to me it's clear that she's female. I wonder why she objects so strongly to having her sex, which is not only in her DNA but apparent to a half-observant onlooker, recorded?

Gncq There is currently a sex marker on passports. If we think actually that's not needed after all (quite possible!) then we should remove it or, to be compliant with international standards, give everyone a passport with 'X' on it. But if we do think it's important to record people's sex on their passports, why on earth should we allow some people to opt out?

“There can be little more central to a citizen’s private life than gender, whatever that gender may or may not be… gender is relevant as one of the most important aspects of private life …the Appellant’s gender identification undoubtedly engages Article 8.” (Paragraphs 47-48)
So what exactly do they mean by gender?

The usual mix up of ‘gender’ and ‘gender identity’. We are all gendered by our social and cultural contexts, whether we feel like it or not.

-and neither is a substitute for ‘sex’.

@Gncq

Well, they've done this in Germany for years and it has worked fine.

Transpeople should be issued ID based on trans status eg an "X" or "T" status rather than insisting everyone pretends they have actually changed sex, in my opinion.

In this case, the female person had a hysterectomy and mastectomy. It's a Shame they felt they had to do that but it's better they have "X" instead of "Male" on their passport.

It's not true about Germany. My son is getting his German passport renewed and we have the application form here so I checked.

Yes, there are three options, but the third option it not for "non-binary".
It is for "unbestimmt", ie undefined. This refers to intersex cases, not to non-binary or trans.

^^ but the third option it not for "non-binary...
...should be, non-binary, trans etc

Gncq There is currently a sex marker on passports. If we think actually that's not needed after all (quite possible!) then we should remove it or, to be compliant with international standards, give everyone a passport with 'X' on it

Currently, anyone can apply to get their sex marker changed from M to F or vice versa. This has been in place for decades. It's actually pretty easy to do.

Obviously no one has "no sex" but the option for an "X' has been in place in certain countries now for years. I don't see how you can argue that it's fine for a passport to be able to tell one lie eg M or F, and extrapolate that to say all passports should be "X".

Yes, there are three options, but the third option it not for "non-binary"
It is for "unbestimmt", ie undefined. This refers to intersex cases, not to non-binary or trans

Yes it's true this is the case, but it's still used by gender ideologists to prove a point and they have done so very successfully.

Gncq I don't understand your reply - do you think passports should have people's sex on or not?

If they should, then it should be there for everyone. If not, then it should be there for no-one.

I incidentally don't think it's a good thing that people can choose whether they want their passport to say M or F, but that's not what this case was about. It was about demanding the ability to opt out of having a sex marker at all.

This judgment was handed down on 10 March. I'm pretty sure there were threads about then.

Being intersex has nothing whatsoevr to do with having a "gender identity".

And in fact having an X for intersex is in line with recording sex.

I have a memory of the German case that lead to this option, because of course trans people tried to claim it as their victory and were slapped down by the intersex community.

You have a sex. It just ‘is’. Why should you argue that you are so special that you don’t? It’s like arguing that you don’t have a heart or body or thoughts.

I don't see how you can argue that it's fine for a passport to be able to tell one lie eg M or F, and extrapolate that to say all passports should be "X".

I don't believe it should be able to tell any lies on a passport or birth certificate but I can still see the problems with allowing an X. This person claims to be non-binary but what about all the other "100+ genders"? They could just as easily argue that X doesn't adequately represent their identity.

Court must have heard from all parties and made a decision. That’s the end of it.

@Gncq

Yes, there are three options, but the third option it not for "non-binary" It is for "unbestimmt", ie undefined. This refers to intersex cases, not to non-binary or trans

Yes it's true this is the case, but it's still used by gender ideologists to prove a point and they have done so very successfully.

What point have they "proven"?

It very clearly refers to intersex people. That's why it was introduced at all, not to validate trans/nb people.

www.nytimes.com/2018/12/14/world/europe/transgender-germany-diverse.html

This article, however, wrongly translates the third marker, "unbestimmt", as "diverse". This is wrong. "Unbestimmt" correctly translates to "undefined". It is even translated into English on the passport form as "undefined". This is very different from "diverse".

Here's a German passport application form.
Unfortunately, it does translate "Geschecht" as "Gender", which might be confusing in English; but German is nuanced. The word Geschlecht has nothing to do with gender identity. It IS another word for sex, used in grammar, for all mammals, etc, while "sex" is used for procreation.

dublin.diplo.de/blob/2339058/44d9d7561362e438c37e9e7fc5f617f5/passport-application-adult-data.pdf

@Lordfrontpaw

You have a sex. It just ‘is’. Why should you argue that you are so special that you don’t? It’s like arguing that you don’t have a heart or body or thoughts.

This sums it up. Why do people get so invested in this idea that because they don't have a 'gender' that means they don't have a sex either?

From the BBC report on this:

"My identity is neither male nor female, and I describe myself as non-gendered," the activist told the BBC's PM programme.

When asked about how it felt to be forced to tick one box or another, the campaigner said: "It's really degrading, especially since I've been working so hard and for so long to try and persuade the UK government to change its discriminatory policy."

But male and female aren't identities, they're biological categories. I don't understand why this individual thinks it's so 'degrading' to admit to being female, unless they've internalised a whole load of misogyny.

And if they're ever admitted to hospital, do they want to be given the correct treatment for a woman, or do they want to be treated as a non-binary special person and possibly die as a result?

Absolutely. Sex isn't something you can opt out of. You just are male or female — apart from if you have a condition that makes you intersex, and she's not claiming that. Just because she may be dysphoric doesn't change reality.

It's all so weird. It's as if passports are accessories holding up a mirror to people's vanity, rather than important identity documents allowing officicals to check that the individual is who they claim to be. The correct place for 'gender expression' is surely the creative arts: write a novel telling us just how female you feel. Write a folksong about the time you went to a gay sauna and felt rejected. By all means!

I heard her being interviewed on LBC radio when this judgement came out.
She appeared to have no rational arguement behind her wish to be non gender other than she doesn't like being classified.
That is not a reason to change our passports.

Shouldn’t have a name then either. Or even a passport. What about registration for to vote or a driving licence?

What is the logic here?

This will be an interesting case to revisit when the UK leaves the ECHR.

Will the UKs domestic law continue to provide for this case, or will it remain silent ?

Not aware of any current plans to leave the ECHR, or more accurately the Council of Europe. The European Convention on Human Rights is enshrined in domestic law via the Human Rights Act and I know of no current plans to repeal the HRA. Passports are issued under Royal Prerogative rather than any statute, although they do have to conform to internationally agreed standards.

Not aware of any current plans to leave the ECHR, or more accurately the Council of Europe. The European Convention on Human Rights is enshrined in domestic law via the Human Rights Act and I know of no current plans to repeal the HRA.

Current strategy is not to assume. The HRA is on the hit list and will go eventually.

There were no plans to leave the Single Market either.

And yet left we have.