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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Extreme example of pronoun-bending in today's Guardian

14 replies

GCGayDad · 25/05/2020 13:49

Anyone else spotted this?

www.theguardian.com/music/2020/may/25/india-jordan-dance-music-clubbing-gender-non-binary

For me, the use of 'they' and 'their' throughout with the plural verb makes it almost unreadable, never mind the 'non-binary' nonsense.

You used to hear intolerant types complain that the meaning of the word 'gay' has been twisted by 'homosexuals' - which, irrespective of the politics, is a nonsensical criticism as words constantly change their meaning. But this use of 'they' seems IMO to be going way beyond that - it's like a forced mangling of grammar imposed from above, not a natural change in language through people's usage.

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FWRLurker · 25/05/2020 13:58

Eh the singular they is pretty old, used by Shakespeare apparently. I can’t get too excited about this issue in particular

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/05/2020 14:24

It does, as GCDad says, make some text virtually unreadable and that is not good for people with any sort of problems reading English.

testing987654321 · 25/05/2020 14:24

Completely mangled, I agree.

However, reading that article I filtered the actual information to get a story of a lesbian who experienced homophobia growing up, then sexism as a young adult when trying to enter the world of DJing.

Is she describing herself as 'they' to try to get round this?

Gncq · 25/05/2020 14:25

*The non-binary artist discovered their true identity with help from novelist Sarah Waters. Now, they’re spreading a mission of self-acceptance to a euphoric disco beat"

Tragic Comedy.

Not to mention the fact anyone who meets India will instantly read they as female.

Gncq · 25/05/2020 14:25

Awe I really want to edit my formatting in the above post Sad

testing987654321 · 25/05/2020 14:30

I wonder how many males recognised their 'queerness' after reading Sarah Walter's novels? I mean, sex doesn't matter does it, it's what's in your head that counts.

Gncq · 25/05/2020 14:31

Eh the singular they is pretty old, used by Shakespeare apparently

All people use singular "they" sometimes but not in ways so you've no idea who they're talking about because they've been forced not to use he/she.

In the very first sentence of the article, are they talking about the non-binary artist, or the non-binary artist AND Sarah Walters?

Fimofriend · 25/05/2020 14:41

I stopped reading Guardian several months ago due to their insistance that trans women are women.

popehilarious · 25/05/2020 14:51

Generally I don't care about the singular "they" except when it's not clear who's being talked about, as in this article. None of it is as bad as "'ardcore sherbet", though..
Also it's interesting that India says "Everyone getting booked was a man, and when I was booked I was always the opener.”. Were people so open with their pronouns in those days that one would know the gender identity of every dj?

It'd be inspiring to read about the journey and success of a female dj in a primarily misogynistic male scene such as this.

GCGayDad · 25/05/2020 14:51

All people use singular "they" sometimes but not in ways so you've no idea who they're talking about because they've been forced not to use he/she.

It’s true that the use of they to refer to an individual has a long pedigree in English. But as gncq says, this is something else besides.

I actually work in a field involving copywriting and text editing and have more than once advocated for the use of “they” in a text if it’s the best option. But there’s no way I’d write “they” to refer to an individual all the way through a long text.

Separately, my view is that even five years ago the person in the article would have left that person’s homophobic home town and come out as lesbian. How has it come about that young women - and to a lesser degree young men - feel better about calling themselves queer, non-binary or transgender than simply lesbian, bisexual or gay? (Rhetorical question - we know the answer.)

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Ilovemystarter · 25/05/2020 17:03

The point of this sort of writing - writing trying to convey factual information - isn't that the reader should notice the words used.The reader should be able to "see through" the words to engage with the story being conveyed - in this case, that of a young lesbian struggling against prejudice and the limitations imposed by society. The words we use in factual writing are like a window, through which we see the landscape of facts - we shouldn't be forced to focus on the glass. It should be invisible.

Using "they" in this way stops that process: the reader notices the language, and so engages less with what is actually being conveyed.

This is why, when we learn a foreign language, we learn about pronounciation. If my pronounciation of (say) Spanish is crap, I may still be able to get by in Spain. But a native Spanish speaker listening to me will have to focus on the words I am using to decipher each one - on the medium - and in doing so will be distracted from the message. By making my listener focus on individual words and how to interpret them I have hampered my ability to engage with people.

It's the same with written language - anything that focuses attention on the words used, as opposed to the message, distracts from the message (obviously poetry and dramatic writing are in a different category - I'm not talking about that).

India's story has not been told well by the Guardian, because of this, which is a shame. Her lived experience has been concealed by the language used, and as a result it has lost some of its force. She has been let down by this clumsy use of language.

Being a female is nothing to be ashamed of India! If we go along with the idea that it is, we're letting the bastards win. Love yourself, take pride in your story, don't hide behind opaque language which conceals who you are.

DidoLamenting · 25/05/2020 17:24

The non-binary artist discovered their true identity with help from novelist Sarah Waters

That's a very misleading headline. I read it as Sarah Walters had personally assisted- not that this person had simply been inspired by Walter's work.

There were plenty of things in the article I didn't understand (and have no interest in finding out about) but it wasn't the "their" "they" which caused that.

The featured track is tedious.

GCGayDad · 25/05/2020 17:59

Lovely summary of the language issue there, @Ilovemystarter -- exemplary writing. In total contrast to the article itself!

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Durgasarrow · 27/05/2020 01:49

Jesus they is unreadable

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