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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Warning over Transgender Advice to Judges

24 replies

GCGayDad · 10/05/2020 17:03

Just spotted this on Facebook on the excellent “OffGuardian” page. Sorry if it’s already been posted. As Off Guardian summarises it, “ A man assaults you, is found guilty as charged, and the judge then penalizes you for refusing to pretend he's a woman and referring to him by the pronoun he.”

From the main article:

“The Bench Book advises that transgender defendants should be addressed by the pronouns of their choice and that ‘self-definition is the most important criteria’ (sic). At least one victim of violence by a transgender woman has been reprimanded in court for using male pronouns while describing the attack. Finding the defendant guilty, the judge refused the victim compensation, saying that when asked to refer to the defendant as ‘she’, the victim had done so with ‘bad grace’ or continued to use ‘he’.

“Solicitor Harriet Wistrich, head of the Centre for Women’s Justice, has raised concerns about pronoun use in cases involving violence against women. ‘Here there is a conflict between the right of self-definition and the right of a victim, who may have been violated in the most horrendous way, to describe her material reality as she perceives it,’ she said. ‘Why is the victim’s right less important?’”

www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/warning-over-transgender-guidance-to-judges/5103196.article

OP posts:
rosiepony · 10/05/2020 17:07

Good. About time. I’m not going to call any man she whether they assaulted me or not. No more lies.

BlackForestCake · 10/05/2020 17:21

This is judges effectively requiring witnesses to perjure themselves, by saying something which they know is not true. It completely contradicts the oath that everyone takes.

LouHotel · 10/05/2020 17:31

Hang on they removed a victim surcharge presumably over a sentence such as ‘he penetrated me with his penis’

Fuck off, just fuck off, absolutely get the fuck out.

How is it possible to describe your attack in good grace!

Lordfrontpaw · 10/05/2020 17:33

So maybe the victim can say that they preferred to be called ‘the person who was raped by the defendant’?

TedsFederationRep · 10/05/2020 18:04

Surely as a witness, you are compelled by oath to tell the truth? Anything else is perjury.

Where is the case law that gives judges the legal authority to force a witness to lie under oath?

Here's an absolutely wild guess. There isn't any.

ChurchOfWokeApostate · 10/05/2020 18:07

It’s honestly sickening.
But not at all surprising.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 10/05/2020 18:11

The reason why the victim's voice is less important is because the victims are women. It's pure misogyny with MRA groups having been able to regulatory capture the judiciary in favour of male offenders. As clearly evidenced in Maria's case.

Lamahaha · 10/05/2020 18:41

She penetrated me with her penis

Perjury.

DodoPatrol · 11/05/2020 08:46

Hang on they removed a victim surcharge presumably over a sentence such as ‘he penetrated me with his penis’

No. This sounds like Maria Maclachlan's case. Six-foot male youth grabbing at a camera held by 5-foot, 60-year-old woman, shoving her over and bruising her in the process.

nauticant · 11/05/2020 09:19

Where is the case law that gives judges the legal authority to force a witness to lie under oath?

It comes from the Equal Treatment Bench Book:

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ETBB-February-2018-amended-March-2020.pdf

It is important to respect a person’s gender identity by using appropriate terms of address, names and pronouns. Everyone is entitled to respect for their gender identity, private life and personal dignity.

Treatment of transgender people in court
14. It should be possible to recognise a person's gender identity and their present name for nearly all court and tribunal purposes, regardless of whether they have obtained legal recognition of their gender by way of a Gender Recognition Certificate. See ‘Acceptable terminology’ within this chapter.
15. A person’s gender at birth or their transgender history should not be disclosed unless it is necessary and relevant to the particular legal proceedings. Where a person has applied for or obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate, section 22 of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 specifically applies to such disclosure.Further details on this important issue are set out in the next section.
16. Disclosure of gender assigned at birth maybe essential, but this will be rare. It will usually be possible to accept a person’s legal gender, or their gender identity, for court and tribunal purposes without further inquiry. Further inquiries may not only be intrusive and offensive, but could breach rights under article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights (respect for private life), which arguably means that the disclosure would need to be relevant and necessary for the proper disposal of the legal proceedings.

68. Showing respect for a person’s gender identity includes using appropriate terms of address (Mr, Mrs, Ms), pronouns (he/she) and possessives (his/her). Non-binary people may prefer to be referred to in gender-neutral terms (eg Mx, they, their). Whilst gender-neutral terminology is not yet mainstream, this should be accommodated wherever possible.
69. If in any doubt, it is best to ask a person how they would like to be addressed and what pronoun they would prefer you to use. If there is a question about how a person would like to be addressed, this will usually be dealt with before they come into the courtroom, and you will be advised accordingly.

As I've written before, I don't think these guidelines are intended to have a blanket application to the evidence given by victims and witnesses in court. But that is how they have been applied.

One way to tackle this mis-application would be, as is the norm these days, judicial review.

nauticant · 11/05/2020 09:22

See also this:

Location within the Prison Estate
36. A transgender person who has obtained legal recognition of their gender by way of a Gender Recognition Certificate is entitled to be located in the part of the prison estate which reflects their legal gender.
37. Other transgender people who can demonstrate evidence of consistently living in their gender identity may be located in the part of the prison estate which corresponds to their gender identity.
38. Where a transgender person does not have a GRC, the decision regarding location in the prison estate must be made by an initial local transgender case board, ideally at the pre-sentencing stage. If this is not possible, an initial local transgender case board must be convened within 3 days of the person being received into custody (whether on remand or after sentencing).
39. The transgender person’s views on where they would prefer to be located within the prison estate must to be taken into account by the board.

Lordfrontpaw · 11/05/2020 09:32

‘Over’ other people’s views (concerns, fears...). How did we get to this?

TedsFederationRep · 11/05/2020 09:36

Thank you, Nauticant. Lots of caveats in those guidelines, of course, and they remain just that - guidelines.

In the absence of statute or case law specifying otherwise, I would still be obliged to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth if I was under oath as a witness. The treatment of Maria MacLachlan was shameful, both at the time and subsequently in court.

JellySlice · 11/05/2020 09:38

A person’s gender at birth or their transgender history should not be disclosed unless it is necessary and relevant to the particular legal proceedings.

And calling a male 'she' does not disclose their transgender history?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/05/2020 09:42

No. This sounds like Maria Maclachlan's case. Six-foot male youth grabbing at a camera held by 5-foot, 60-year-old woman, shoving her over and bruising her in the process.

Just to clarify she didn't just get shoved for the camera. Wolf and others hit her and kicked her.

JellySlice · 11/05/2020 09:43

'self-definition is the most important criteria'

Male defendant: "I'm a woman."
Judge: "Yes, madam."

Male (or female) defendant: "I'm innocent."
Judge: "The court will decide. What's the evidence?"

Lordfrontpaw · 11/05/2020 10:40

And you can bet the people who get victim payout won’t be the woman physically lamped by the 6footer. It will be paid to the 6footer for ‘hurt feelings’.

OldCrone · 11/05/2020 10:49

Location within the Prison Estate
36. A transgender person who has obtained legal recognition of their gender by way of a Gender Recognition Certificate is entitled to be located in the part of the prison estate which reflects their legal gender.

This is official policy for prisons. Trans prisoners automatically go to the prison corresponding to their legally recognised sex, so a man with a GRC

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf

SarahTancredi · 11/05/2020 10:50

This must be worst for the victims than the original assault/rape/crime Sad

The criminals are criminals we expect no more from them.

The police, the courts, they are supposed to be the ones to help you. To get justice for you. They are supposed to know better than become another person to abuse you Angry

Cos that its abuse. Its gaslighting.

OldCrone · 11/05/2020 10:53

Accidentally posted too soon.

A man with a GRC who is legally female would automatically go to a women's prison (and be recorded as a woman for statistical purposes). The implications if self ID were to become law are obvious.

nauticant · 11/05/2020 11:15

As we know, after all we've been told enough, self-ID is only about getting a piece of paper. That's all. There will be no impact in the real world beyond people getting their piece of paper very easily.

Why would we be so obsessed about someone getting a piece of paper?

SarahTancredi · 11/05/2020 11:24

Yet for a piece of paper that no one carrots around and no one asks to see its awfully important.🤔

Will seem insignificant until the day there is a law suit regarding unfair and unequal pay or discriminatory maternity/return to work treatment lost on the grounds " men get paid that/have babies/breastfeed" too...

Datun · 11/05/2020 11:25

Just to clarify she didn't just get shoved for the camera. Wolf and others hit her and kicked her.

"Wolf was found guilty of “assault by beating,” more commonly known as “battery.”

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/04/27/trans-identified-male-tara-wolf-charged-assault-hyde-park-attack/

Staffori · 11/05/2020 19:56

I highly recommend the video Maria MacLachlan made over the assault on her and the trans activists' response.

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