Why Are We Allowing This To Happen?

[VikVal81]

Why is there so much silence on this topic?
Why arent we making more of an effort to deal with this?
How many girls and women are we letting down by saying nothing?

A woman who was sexually abused by Pakistani grooming gang members is now receiving racist abuse from “far-left groups” for speaking out online.

Speaking under the pseudonym “Ella”, the woman revealed that she was called “a white sg, a white c, a white whore, a white bh and a f** gori which is their name for a white person” by her abusers, who raped her more than 100 times in Yorkshire, Northern England.

“We need to understand racially and religiously aggravated crime if we are going to prevent it and protect people from it and if we are going to prosecute correctly for it,” she told YorkshireLive.

“Prevention, protection and prosecution — all of them are being hindered because we are neglecting to properly address the religious and racist aspects of grooming gang crimes.

“It’s telling them that it’s OK to hate white people.”

Police, prosecutors, and judges have indeed actively resisted treating grooming gang crimes — perpetrated overwhelmingly by Muslim, usually South Asian origin men, against non-Muslim, usually white working-class girls — as racist, and have even backed handing harsher punishments to people who have abused Asian girls and explained that the “shame” they experience makes victimising them more serious than victimising white girls.

www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/i-raped-rotherham-grooming-gang-18121059

Would you call that racism, Rwanda? Isn't that more tribalism? The 2 warring factions aren't different races, they're different ethnic groups - but still within the same race.
People use racism to describe xenophobia as well, but it isn't. It's not racist to belittle the French, for e.g., it's xenophobic.

There is a lot of racism in Uganda between the Indian population and the African population too - so you are correct, that white people aren't always involved, and I've already said that I don't agree with the currently PC/woke usage of the term racism - I just think that your example wasn't the best.

ThumbWitchesAbroad

Dido- it's definitely NOT just on MN.
It's all over social media as well.
And yes, a lot of it is among the more "woke" groups

I've seen it on FWR

there's always words like "privileged white male" thing.
then what's second privileged group?
"privileged white female"

oppression Olympic is such a waste. new caste.

even in 'most oppressed' group, there's new caste.
youtube, i saw black trans woman shouting at white trans woman
"say sorry, we are the most oppressed one!"
"i'm sorry."
"no, i don't accept that."
such a cringe.

and i think some part of transtrend is part of that.
desperately want some 'oppression'.
not became privileged.

as a foreign eye.

I didn't say it wasn't on MN, I said it wasn't JUST on MN.

The idea that white people cannot be victims of racism is nonsense. It's an idea however that has gained considerable traction on MN including FWR.

Isn't it the same as saying that men cannot be victims of sexism?

Surely it depends on your definition of both racism and sexism?

If the definition is that the victim is someone who experiences oppression because of their race / sex then white people can be victims of racism and men can be victims of sexism.

If your definition of racism is something like: we live in a racist world where white people have so many advantages over darker skinned people that any individual oppression is inconsequential, not because of the effect on the oppressed white person, but because in the grand scheme of things it does not challenge or remove white privilege.

I have heard feminists argue the same about the impossibility of men being victims of sexism because of the oppressive and insidious nature of the patriarchy.

Personally I think that all of these definitions are problematic and that the important thing is to keep an open mind about thinking and discussing sensitive issues.

One very obviously sensitive thing around this very issue is that the whole discourse regarding grooming gangs has been astroturfed and appropriated by the far right.

These things are always nuanced but, like many sensitive issues, divisive forces get involved and attempt to pitch different campaigning groups against one another in a divide and conquer strategy.

If readers are interested in the appropriation of these narratives by the far right just check out the involvement of Tommy Robinson, the White Pendragons, various dubious paedophile hunter groups, The Democratic Football Lads Alliance, conspiracy theorists promoting SRA narratives, flat earthers, freemen on the land groups and other similar conspiracy theorist networks.

Isn't it the same as saying that men cannot be victims of sexism?

Yes and I've never said- quite the opposite

Would you call that racism, Rwanda? Isn't that more tribalism? The 2 warring factions aren't different races, they're different ethnic groups - but still within the same race

There is only 1 race. Racism is all around distinguishing between different ethnic groups.

Yes and I've never said- quite the opposite

Thanks for the clarification

I wasn't really sure what posters here thought about this

Would you call that racism, Rwanda? Isn't that more tribalism? The 2 warring factions aren't different races, they're different ethnic groups - but still within the same race

The Rwanda genocides were more about power and divide and conquer than they were about race or tribe. Tribes were pitched against one another by colonial powers. The tribal differences are of course important but it is the power dynamic and the manipulation of different oppressed groups against one another that was the central issue.

The word racism is so utterly misused and now that I find it worse than useless. I agree with Dido that the idea that white people cannot be the victim of racism is nonsense.

Distorting the term racism to mean something which only a stronger/majority group can do to a minority group certainly contributed to the invisibility of the prejudice against those vulnerable white girls.

I think, however, that the word that should be used is prejudice, which escapes from this wrangling over and mangling of the word racism.

Anyone at all can be prejudiced. What we are describing is the psychological concept of in-groups and out-groups. Humans are limitlessly capable of being prejudiced against another group based on absolutely any characteristic you care to name or even magic out of thin air, as psychological experiments showed.

And if you genuinely believe that humans are all the same under their skin colour, you have to agree to attribute them an equal capacity to be reasonably or unreasonably prejudiced against others.

Oppression/structural oppression that may arise from prejudice is a related but different concept.

The cynic in me does not believe for a second that this has been ignored and still is for "fear to be branded as racists". It's just a handy excuse , to hide the real problem while we're busy pointing fingers at eachother.

I've seen the same hesitation with other scenarios though, which didn't have anything to do with women or sexual abuse, one just recently. There was a problem in a particular minority community and the authorities were not willing to talk about it publicly, even when they would talk about the same thing when it was a different group of people.

I've also heard people working in social services talking about how they struggled to try not to be racially biased in some situations and it made it difficult to make good decisions.

I don't doubt there are people who don't care much about poor white girls being assaulted, but I'm sure that's not all that is going on here.

Would you call that racism, Rwanda? Isn't that more tribalism? The 2 warring factions aren't different races, they're different ethnic groups - but still within the same race.
People use racism to describe xenophobia as well, but it isn't. It's not racist to belittle the French, for e.g., it's xenophobic.

I would say that racism is just a type of tribalism - a race is what we define it as, essentially. Several hundred years ago people considered the French, British, or the Greeks, to be different "races" and you still hear remnants of that language sometimes.

The Rwanda genocides were more about power and divide and conquer than they were about race or tribe. Tribes were pitched against one another by colonial powers. The tribal differences are of course important but it is the power dynamic and the manipulation of different oppressed groups against one another that was the central issue.

The idea of being a member of the white or black race, which replaced the more nationalistic or tribal version, was pretty much invented for the same purpose - to justify a certain power structure and also to divide the people at the bottom of it.

VikVal81 - "I appreciate all the replies and agree with what's being said, but what exactly is being done about it? Whose fighting for these girls? Where are the so called feminist groups bringing this to mainstream? Where are the protests? Where is anything? It just seems it's a case of oh well shrug shoulders let's just keep having a go about what it's safe to have a go about. I mean, this is not a feminist movement I can relate to! All girls and women need to be protected!!"

I am not sure exactly what you are expecting of Mumsnet members who are posting on FWR VikVal81 - but at the very least we could please stop theorising about the correct terminology applicable to Rwanda when this is about Rotherham!

"Whose fighting for these girls? Where are the so called feminist groups bringing this to mainstream? Where are the protests? Where is anything?"

VikVal81 - Are you connected with Dr Ella Hill? Is she aware that you are seeking help here for her on her behalf?

Are you talking about Dr Ella Hill receiving online abuse from "far left groups"? From "radical feminist academics"? Both??

"A woman who was sexually abused by Pakistani grooming gang members is now receiving racist abuse from “far-left groups” for speaking out online."

I have scrolled down Ella's Twitter timeline but I cannot see any abuse from anyone. I am not suggesting that she has not received this abuse but all I can see are supportive tweets.

In the Yorkshire Live article, Ella says:

"She (Ella) says she is being hounded with abuse by radical left extremist groups and although she has complained to Twitter, the social media giant is yet to take action.

Ella said: “On Twitter I get a lot of abuse from far-left extremists, and radical feminist academics.

“There is one group who go online and they try to resist anyone they consider to be a Nazi, racist, fascist or white supremacist. They don’t care about anti-white racism, because they appear to believe that it doesn’t exist.

“They have tried to floor me and criticise me continually and this has been going on for a couple of months.

“They tried to shut me down, shut me up and drive me off Twitter. I’ve never experienced such hate online in my life. They accuse me of ‘advocating for white paedophiles’ and being a ‘sinister demonic entity.’”

Who are these people - they sound insane! Are they anonymous or can they be identified? What are these groups called?

Has Ella tried reaching out to women's groups locally for help? Has she kept evidence of the abuse?

And again because this is important:

VikVal81 - Are you connected with Dr Ella Hill? Is she aware that you are seeking help here for her on her behalf?

Seeing the whole quote there it's pretty clear that Ella is referring to radical academics who describe themselves as feminists (think Sally Hines and similar academics) rather than radical feminists in the Dworkin/Jeffries sense.

I am somone who was trafficked by a person from an ethnic minority and who subsequently was courted by various apparently helpful anti-violence against women activists who subesquently turned out to be far - right / racist activists.

I just took a look at Dr Ella Hill's twitter account and I feel very concerned about astroturfing

I know what it's like to be trafficked and exploited and to have people disbelieve all or some of what happened to me.

I am in no way disputing that lots of women and girls were let down in the most horrific way by the SYP or that they were abused by grooming gangs.

My serious concerns here are about astroturfing and the far right appropriating and astroturfing survivor groups.

While it is true that some of the grooming gangs were made predominently of Asian men, there are plenty of grooming networks of British, American, Canadian and European men (and some women) exploiting women and children, very often they travel to poor countries to do this.

The pimp who exploited me hated women and hated white people. I received a double whammy of hatred based on my sex and my race.

However, given the sexual and racist abuse my pimp suffered as a child I can make sense of whay he was so filled with hatred. It does not excuse what he did to me of course.

One thing that concerns me greatly, having checked out Ella's twitter feed is that she might be vulnerable to being exploited all over again but by racists.

People who are abused are extremely vulnerable to being abused all over again. It is a sad and horrible reality. Racist and far fright groups have been infiltrating the UK survivor movements and the police inaction over abuses in Rotherham and elsewhere have facilitated this infiltration.

I would be extremely interested in discussing this further with Ella if she is reading this.

Ella I am especially interested in discussing with you issues relating to abuses based on religious and spiritual beliefs.

My interest in this lies in me being extremely familiar with real, genuine abuses against vulnerable people carried out in the name of religious belief by cults, but also to do with hoaxes and false allegations of such abuses, as happens often in the case of allegations of satanic ritual abuse, the Blood Libel and, as I have discovered recently, against some Catholic priests.

I am not a Muslim, Jewish, a Satanist or Catholic. I have no dog in the fight in terms of wanting to defend or accuse any particular religion.

I believe that any religious organisation can become abusive and develop cultic tendencies under certain circumstances.

I am also very interested in abuses relating to false allegations of kindoki / witchcraft against children and vulnerable adults.

I am also interested in psychotherapy abuse generally and recovered memory therapy in particular.

Just putting my cards on the table. I would definitely be interested in talking to you here if you are comfortable with that.

(points up)

@MNHQ, cleanup on aisle 5 please. Can't say he isn't punctual.

I don't doubt there are people who don't care much about poor white girls being assaulted, but I'm sure that's not all that is going on here

I'm with the person you replied to here but I think there is room for nuance-

Don't bother investigating and blame political correctness gone mad if anybody ever bothers to ask why.

Don't arrest people from X estate for raping girls from Y estate because race riots.

Don't give countenance to rapists from X estate raping girls from Y estate because far right insurgence.

They are promiscuous and untrustworthy and probably lying and who cares if its true anyway?

They are promiscuous and untrustworthy but probably telling the truth but the defence would take them apart on the stand if the CPS bothers anyway.

We didn't bother properly investigating all those other rapes, it'll look racist if we bother with this one.

Some mixture of all the above I would imagine, nevertheless I absolutely do not believe any of those things would be a barrier if girls from the fee paying boarding school were trafficked no matter what the ethnicity of the rapists.