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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Disappointing advice in the Guardian

49 replies

Thethiniceofanewday · 01/05/2020 21:35

Woman writes in because her boyfriend is turned on by sissification and she finds it “abhorrent.” The column suggests she allows him to fuck outside their relationship, the first highlighted comment attempts to shame her for using the word “abhorrent.”

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/01/boyfriend-sexual-kinks-i-find-abhorrent-resolve-differences#comment-140278165

OP posts:
TabbyTurmoil · 02/05/2020 14:06

I think Annalisa's advice is fine. The firat thing she says is is your consent obtained coercively and this theme continues.

I am less keen on the reported advice from the relationships therapist but even he makes the point about consent and ultimately his view is his own not Annalisa's or the guardian's.

The highlighted comment about kink shaming is of course 100% predictable.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/05/2020 14:14

I'm missing the bit where anyone gives a fuck about what turns the women on - it's all about his dick and what makes it stiff.

Nameofchanges · 02/05/2020 14:25

It really isn’t the same as any other kink.

If you pretend to be something your partner is - a woman, disabled, Scottish, a nurse or whatever, and then you request they abuse you for being that thing, what you are saying is that you think your partner is worthy of contempt.

KettlePolly · 02/05/2020 14:59

It was awful advice. I agree with one comment that flagged up how the internet has led to kinksters finding other people online who like the same, it becomes normalised and therefore "not a big deal" to ask. Short step to entitlement. See also anal sex and choking. The commenter included the example of shitting on coffee tables which made me laugh. It's still very niche, offensive and distasteful to quite a lot of people and absolutely no one should feel entitled to it.

I can't think of anything less sexy than my partner in women's clothes. I couldn't have sex with him like that. You'd have to share what is quite a niche fetish, in which case no problem.

Goosefoot · 02/05/2020 20:15

I'm not saying the kink isn't abhorrent.

I just don't think that's what the woman who wrote the letter seemed to be saying. She seemed to ok with him having the kink, she just didn't want to do it herself. Now maybe the underlying reason she found it so distasteful is because she was uncomfortable with the implications, but if so that doesn't seem to be a conscious thing, and it's only one possibility.

Overall I thought she was pro-kink herself, so her problem seemed to be framed as, how do we deal with our various kink preferences fairly.

DidoLamenting · 02/05/2020 22:33

I''m missing the bit where anyone gives a fuck about what turns the women on - it's all about his dick and what makes it stiff

Yes, you did miss it. The letter was quite clear he accommodates her kink.

Most of the comments I read were saying it's basically irreconcilable. She is perfectly entitled not to accommodate his kink and this relationship is going nowhere.

TyroSaysMeow · 02/05/2020 22:43

Men who want to be sexually humiliated in what they see as a female role.

I'd rephrase that slightly, Tinsel. Men who see the female role as inherently humiliating, and get off on assuming that role.

No different to your average bloke's cissification fetish really, except they want to be the object rather than the subject.

TehBewilderness · 02/05/2020 22:51

"We enjoy a very active sex life. However, some of the things he is sexually attracted to are just abhorrent to me."

That is a direct quote from the letter.

Goosefoot · 02/05/2020 23:21

???

No one is saying that she didn't use that word, but people don't always pick exactly the right word for what they mean, or see it as meaning just what other people usually mean.

Most people think of abhorrent as being something that you are really put off by but also that you think is just wrong. It seems to me though that what she means is just the first part of that. She goes on in the letter to say that what she means is she finds it a big turn off. She doesn't seem to think some deeper problem that he has that kink, nor that kink is a problem - she suggests that the only difference between his preferred kinks and her own is that she already knows she doesn't enjoy his, because she's tried it before. Whereas he never had tried hers.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/05/2020 23:26

Must be awfully convenient to be able to read the minds of people who you haven't even spoken to and thus know what they meant to say.

TehBewilderness · 02/05/2020 23:27

Goosefoot, when standing in a hole it is best practice to stop digging.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/05/2020 23:30

It's all starting to feel a bit "no, thank you, I am not interested in taking a copy of The Watchtower no matter how many times it's offered".

Goosefoot · 02/05/2020 23:42

Geez Louise.

It was just a thought about a way to read the letter that would resolve what seems like an oddity - the word abhorrent is very strong, but the rest of the letter doesn't really see to fit that. However you make sense of it, you are having to interpret the letter, no one here is reading it with some sort of magic objective knowledge.

As some of the comments said, it's a strong word to use about someone you are actively in a sexual relationship with, it seems to raise some pretty big questions about the relationship and why they are together.

But there is nothing about that in the rest of the letter. She clearly is ok with kink in relationships and seems to think that people should be willing to try out their partners kinks. She doesn't think though that they should have to try something they already know is a turn off. None of that is mind reading, it's what the letter says.

One way to resolve that is to say, well, she's got a moral problem with it but doesn't want to talk about it that way. In which case the real problem is a lot deeper, but that's not really expressed at all in the letter.

Another is to say, maybe by abhorrent she means something closer to "gross" which has the disgust factor without the moral element.

TehBewilderness · 02/05/2020 23:45

It is impossible to discuss anything with a person who refuses to believe that people mean what they say.
I will return to scrolling past.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/05/2020 23:48

As ever Bewilderness is wiser than I am.

DidoLamenting · 02/05/2020 23:56

It isn't a particularly difficult question. There are 3 options:-

  1. Go along with what he wants and see if the relationship lasts;
  2. Refuse, as she is 100% entitled to, to go along with what he wants and see if the relationship lasts;
  3. Split up.

No one can wave a magic wand to make this right for her. I suppose she could suggest he seeks counselling about why this means so much to him, with a view to ending it; equally I suppose he could suggest she seeks counselling as to why she finds it abhorrent with a view to accommodating it.

Personally I think it looks like time to walk away.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/05/2020 23:59

I think any time you're looking at your partner and finding them abhorrent that's a pretty strong indication that option 3 would be the best one.

DidoLamenting · 03/05/2020 00:36

I do agree with Goosefoot to an extent that the letter is oddly worded.

There is a huge disconnect between the things the writer says. They enjoy a very a active sex life but bits of it are abhorrent. She loves him with all her heart and in every other aspect of their relationship she's 100% satisfied. Well she clearly isn't 100% satisfied.

I've no idea what she expected Annalise to say.

TyroSaysMeow · 03/05/2020 00:51

The therapist who says to shift focus to accepting it's okay to not like something and not to try to force yourself - agreed, but the corollary is that you shouldn't try to force someone else either.

Someone needs to tell the boyfriend that.

The letter comes across as disconnected because it takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to maintain acceptable sex-pozzy ideals when your partner is a misogynistic bellend.

BeetrootRocks · 03/05/2020 01:58

I skimmed the link.

Didn't see anything about the boyfriend addressing his unusual sexual problems proclivity which stems from deeply sexist ideas. Did I miss that?

WhereYouLeftIt · 03/05/2020 11:16

"The letter comes across as disconnected because it takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to maintain acceptable sex-pozzy ideals when your partner is a misogynistic bellend."

^ This!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/05/2020 11:31

Yes, you did miss it. The letter was quite clear he accommodates her kink

No, it wasn't. There was nothing in the letter about him accommodating her anything and nothing in the reply that suggested that what she said to her partner is (similar to) "I have sexual desires too and things that make me horny and things that are abhorrent to me. My desire and fulfulment matter as much as yours".

DidoLamenting · 03/05/2020 16:04

No, it wasn't. There was nothing in the letter about him accommodating her anything and nothing in the reply that suggested that what she said to her partner is (similar to) "I have sexual desires too and things that make me horny and things that are abhorrent to me. My desire and fulfulment matter as much as yours".

What on earth are you on about?

The letter was perfectly clear that she has a kink (not specified) which he is happy to accommodate. She also says they enjoy a very active sex life.

TyroSaysMeow · 03/05/2020 16:45

It doesn't say he's happy to accommodate her kinks, it says he tried them and likes them too. So whatever her kink may be (and I'd be interested to know, because whether it's offensively sexist or just a bit weird matters) it's no longer just about her.

Does this thread feel like a collaborative GCSE Lit exam to anyone ekse?

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