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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Diversity dolls suggestions

77 replies

SirenFox · 01/05/2020 09:32

Hi everyone. This is my first time making a post so I hope I'm doing it right and don't break any rules. With this time on my hands during lockdown I'm thinking of making some more diverse/inclusive dolls. As a child especially for young girls I think it's super important to see themselves represented. I know Mattel tried to make some diverse barbies but I was wondering if there are any bases that haven't been covered. Do you have special daughter who you wish could see herself represented in dolls? Help me out with some suggestions. Ideas already:

  • Different races and cultures
  • Varied sizes and weights
  • Wheelchair
  • Hearing aid
  • Amputee and/or prosthetic limb(s)
  • Cystic fibrosis (potentially oxygen tank and tubes)
  • Bald and short hair
  • 'Excess' body/facial hair

I didn't feel that the 'Toys and Games' section was right for this and I feel that diversity and inclusivity is a feminist issue close to my heart. Let me know if you have any other thoughts about this or something that hasn't occurred to me, as you guys and your kids are the target audience after all. I am trying to do something kind so hopefully nobody finds this offensive.

Thanks in advance.

OP posts:
sashh · 01/05/2020 11:10

I think there are gaps OP, but more for hidden disabilities / health conditions. A doll that looks like every other rag doll but has a chest scar from an operation or a pacemaker implant.

Dolls wearing glasses seem to not exist, although you can get them for build a bear.

I can see problems with hearing aids, or cochlear implants as most children would want them to be remocable but then you would have tiny parts that could be a hazard.

I think if you are going for rag doll type dolls then making a bespoke doll for a specific child would be a niche idea.

Puppets might also be an idea.

One of my childcare classes made various puppets and thenmade a short film of the puppets doing something like going into hospital, the idea being the film would explain something to a child. Something like that, either something on youtube or a book to go with the doll I can see a market for.

Obviously it doesn't just have to be medical / physical differences, Seseme st did a film about visiting a parent in prison.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/05/2020 11:15

I just used the phrases AMAB and AFAB so's not to offend anyone. It seems I cannot write anything without saying something wrong.

Welcome to MN feminism board!Grin I can see you're intentions are all excellent, but issues around gender have been a matter of much debate and discussion over the years on here and are taken seriously. I assume you posted here because you want (constructive) criticism from feminists - sometimes that may be a tad blunt especially from some of us who've been discussing issues of sex and gender for decades.
You might be interested in taking a look at the 'Let toys be toys' website - spawned several years ago from a thread on here.

ScapaFlo · 01/05/2020 11:17

Op, you keep saying gender when you obviously mean sex.

My brother had dolls (Action Man) as I did I (another Action Man and Barbie and Ken) but toys were so much less gendered then (toys don't have a sex, they're inanimate objects).

I never saw a doll with red curly hair and freckles like me.

walkingchuckydoll · 01/05/2020 11:18

- Different races and cultures

I grew up in the 80's and had a black boy doll, a doll with east asian eyes and an indian looking doll. Surely they still exist?

InfiniteSheldon · 01/05/2020 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

StrangeLookingParasite · 01/05/2020 11:22

they transitioned to be men because they didn't feel they could ever achieve the acceptable 'woman' role that society had shown was the only way

But this is demonstrably untrue. What kind of weird ghetto do people live in that extreme stereotypes seem like the only way?

walkingchuckydoll · 01/05/2020 11:22

My brother had dolls (Action Man) as I did I (another Action Man and Barbie and Ken) but toys were so much less gendered then (toys don't have a sex, they're inanimate objects).
I agree that toys used to be less gendered. My toys had all kinds of colours. Now everything in the toyshop is either pink and glitter or blue. What on earth happened to red, green, orange and yellow? They were lovely colours.

GrumpyHoonMain · 01/05/2020 11:22

I want a brown skinned male doll for DS.

Original poster
SirenFox · 01/05/2020 11:27

Interesting thank you very much @sashh exactly what I was hoping to gain from this thread.

@scapaflo @ErrolTheDragon @Thinkingabout1t I will keep my opinions on the matter to myself but let's just say everything I have written here especially the terminology is with the intention of trying to be PC (failing and still offending everyone) not necessarily reflecting my own opinion. I will stay away from the gender politics debate. I am not a parent so don't worry about how I will be raising the next generation. Hence why I came on mumsnet to get some opinions from actual parents since I am not one. I chose the feminist forum because I felt you guys would at least be familiar with diversity/inclusivity matters and I was right.

@walkingchuckydoll thanks this is the kind of input I was hoping for also. I am not a parent so unsure what is on the market, if people feel all the races/cultures are covered that is helpful, as I am trying to cater to people who do not feel represented already.

OP posts:
Original poster
SirenFox · 01/05/2020 11:30

@StrangeLookingParasite if you are genuinely interested I would recommend looking at some videos of 'detransitioners' such as GNC-centric and Elle Palmer amongst many others. Their experiences give an enlightening view of the gender expectations that still exist these days for young women even in the progressive, liberal places that they grew up.

OP posts:
Original poster
SirenFox · 01/05/2020 11:38

Thanks everyone for your input, there has been some useful info gleaned here. I feel this is derailing a separate debate so I will leave the thread here and won't be logging in to check it again.

OP posts:
ScrimpshawTheSecond · 01/05/2020 12:03

I am not a parent so don't worry about how I will be raising the next generation

So why on earth are you trying to make diverse dolls, then?

What kids and the world definitely does not need now is yet more plastic tat.

Sorry, OP. Kids are better with far FEWER toys, I can't get excited about a doll that's slightly different to all the other dolls already out there. There are too many, we are drowning in all this stuff.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 01/05/2020 12:05

It is not a mistake to say that the majority of parents that buy dolls are buying them for their daughters.

I think that's a very good illustration of the gendered assumptions that are harming our kids.

Boys have just as many dolls bought for them, if not more - we just are supposed to call them 'action figures'. In my experience for instance, pretty much every boy I've ever met owns a spiderman doll. They have vehicles, and mounts, and houses, and accessories for them, different outfits (armour) etc. exactly like the human style dolls people would traditionally buy for girls.

jellyfrizz · 01/05/2020 12:18

Boys have just as many dolls bought for them, if not more - we just are supposed to call them 'action figures'.

Yes, lego minifigs are basically dolls.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/05/2020 12:19

My observation is that most dolls are bought by someone other than the parents - all the barbies and princess dolls DD had were birthday presents chosen by people who didn't have a clue about her tastes, just a lazy default 'girl present'. The 'pinkest' presents tended to be chosen by people who only had boys.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 01/05/2020 12:31

Totally agree Erroll. My daughter has had so much pink stuff (including a doll in a pink dress with long blonde hair) bought for her by my father. This is a man who used to send my brother out to play on his skateboard while I had to sit inside doing cross stitch, and who responded to my news that I'd got into medical school with a disappointed sigh and the words "oh, when you said you had good news I thought you might be pregnant", despite me being in my early 20s and single. It's no surprise that he's now projecting the same sexist stereotypes onto my daughter, who he only sees at Christmas time. The people in my life who actually know my kids and value them as individuals rather than as stereotypes, buy them similar neutral toys like duplo, play food, art supplies etc

Thinkingabout1t · 01/05/2020 12:41

they transitioned to be men because they didn't feel they could ever achieve the acceptable 'woman' role that society had shown was the only way

OP, these girls didn't become men, they become women who might have looked, when dressed, like men. With a (possibly shortened) lifetime to regret the infertility and other irreversible harms that had been done to their bodies.

But leaving that aside, shouldn't we be trying to stop the return of unachievable and restrictive stereotypes?

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 01/05/2020 12:45

The people in my life who actually know my kids and value them as individuals rather than as stereotypes, buy them similar neutral toys like duplo, play food, art supplies etc

I abdicate responsibility for present buying to the kids themselves - so I send whichever child in, and tell them to look for something their friend would like, with a budget.

So far we've given out mini guitars, wooden tool-sets (to a little girl, who was having a rainbows party. Father a bit surprised, girl wore the tool belt with her fairy dress for the whole party), microscope, craft kits, and all sorts of other things in a similar vein. Despite rather liking a stuffy himself, my son wouldn't dream of giving dolls or cuddly toys as a present to someone else it seems.

GrumpyHoonMain · 01/05/2020 12:57

The people in my life who actually know my kids and value them as individuals rather than as stereotypes, buy them similar neutral toys like duplo, play food, art supplies etc

Your attitude stinks. So all of a sudden neutral kids = value? Bet you wouldn’t have had this issue if your DD was given so called ‘boys toys’ like a nerf gun or an action man? This idea that dolls and other female toyed are substandard just because they are aimed at girls is rubbish. My DN loves her Barbies - she likes to lay them out and take their temperature and pretend they have Covid so she can make them better (just like her dad does). She probably wouldn’t have picked them out if she had a choice - they were surprise gifts.

OverZoomed · 01/05/2020 13:04

Lottie dolls already do this.

Thinkingabout1t · 01/05/2020 13:08

my father ... used to send my brother out to play on his skateboard while I had to sit inside doing cross stitch, and responded to my news that I'd got into medical school with a disappointed sigh and the words "oh, when you said you had good news I thought you might be pregnant", despite me being in my early 20s and single.

That is heartbreaking, ByGrabthars. One of my schoolfriends turned down the place she had been offered at university (a big achievement in the 1970s) because her father said he wouldn't let her back into the house if she went. I don't know if he thought he was protecting her or what. She was academically brilliant, but ended up on antidepressants doing low-level admin work.

I felt for you when you said a boy had tried to set fire to your hair! But that was just a nasty brat. Your father - how much more painful. Mine let me 'help' him when he was working.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 01/05/2020 13:10

Not sure you understood my post Grumpy. Maybe re read it and try again? I don't let either of my children play with toys like pretend guns and I don't think there's anything wrong with toys designed for girls like dolls. In fact if you read my earlier posts you'll see I said I specifically looked for dolls to buy my children because I think they're good for social play and that I wish more boys would be encouraged to value nurturing play. But buying toys for a child based on stereotypes isnt valuing them as individuals. My dad didn't buy my daughter a pink blonde haired doll because he thought "oo here's a good way of encouraging her in social skills and social play" he bought it because he saw it and went "pink - > doll - > girl - > done". It was a lazy gift by a man who has been forcing his sexism onto me since my childhood. Buying things that a child has demonstrated an interest in, or neutral toys that allow them to develop their own sense of self and their own interests is a way of showing children you value them as individuals not as stereotypes.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 01/05/2020 13:14

Thanks thinking, my childhood was definitely a mixed bag and I've spent a good chunk of my life weighed down by internalised misogyny. I actually credit FWR for opening my eyes to it and breaking up a lot of the sexist beliefs I'd been holding onto. I cannot overstate how much my life has improved since finding this forum!

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 01/05/2020 13:17

I also grew up in a very rural and homogeneous community. Very little diversity in gender roles or ethnicities around when I was a kid (which I assume is why having curly hair was enough to get me racist abuse!) Obviously as an adult times have moved on and attitudes have changed, my home town is much more diverse now than it was 20 years ago.

SayNoToCarrots · 01/05/2020 13:22

I think Errols idea about making the dolls more accessible for children was really good!

a lot of dolls and their accessories are too darned fiddly - barbie clothes which are so tight they're hard to get on for instance. I'm sure there are various ranges already which aren't as bad but that led me to wonder if there were dolls suitable for children with specific impairments - physical, sight etc. This type of thing would require serious research to get right - a doll for a visually impaired child would (I guess) have to have good tactile qualities - no hard plastic - perhaps responsive to touch (thinking of the furreal animal toys ... gentle touch rewarded) ... not a trivial matter of externalities?