Sally Rooney’s Normal People BBC

[HDDD]

This book has been on my to read list for a while. I took a lazy punt and decided to watch the 12 part BBC adaptation instead. Now I’m overjoyed I never read it. It fascinated me and irked me in equal measure. I don’t want to give spoilers but the thing that grated the most was the ‘pretty’ thing. I don’t know how much was made of this in the book but Marianne said of herself that she wasn’t pretty at school and blossomed in college. Others also said it of her. She didn’t change the structure of her face! I think I have an irrational dislike of the word pretty anyway, but I’d be interested in other views on this – the pretty thing, and whether this book is indeed a modern feminist classic or mainly hogwash.

I found her books awful too, dull, cliche-ridden and unlikeable. There's a lack of warmth and heart in them.

And well spotted on the cool girl MRA thing - she deleted her Twitter account so you can't see her T*f bashing tweets, but she signed that embarrassing moronic letter telling "UK T*fs" to get out of Ireland so that's a write-off as far as I'm concerned.

That doesn't surprise me at all @pachyderm, Sally seems to be a "Marxist" in the Ash Sarkar mould. Just worked out who her writing reminds me of: Bret Easton Ellis, wunderkind of my youth.

Yes Ascoolaslangcleg it's laughable to describe yourself as a "lifelong Marxist" when that translates as little more than: characterising middle class kids who go to college and suffer feelings of envy and social insecurity around rich kids. There's no real class analysis or range, she is not a political writer.

I took a lazy punt and decided to watch the 12 part BBC adaptation instead

How can it possibly be 12 parts? I started reading this evening about an hour,may 90 minutes at most I'm 38% through it.

It's basically- so what? I don't like either of them.

This is from the comments in The Guardian television review but applies equally to the book.

Haven't felt so crushingly bored waiting for something to happen to some teenagers I couldn't care less about since the Blair Witch Project

I loved the book, there is a very polished style to her writing. Her sentences are like beautifully crafted drops of water. I hated the adaptation, utterly unconvincing. I did study English at Trinity as a working class student and Connell, in the series was not anything I've seen. He seems very middle class too. Sally Roonets essays are interesting, one on debating, she won a European debating competition, she is very clever, but she also takes the piss out if bookish cleverness in her books. I think shes one to watch for sure.

She is also a self declared Marxist ala Ash but she has an actual intelligence behind it. I think the trope of being choked, too thin, too attracted to abuse etc is merely a depiction of a type. She references Austen a lot in interviews which makes sense, narrative viewpoint is adetached cold style but I read that as the point. Stylistically her books are brilliant and I totally understand her popularity amongst younger women but her depiction of working class characters is dire. Probably because its outside her experience.

I liked the book. Had the experience myself of being made to feel ugly at secondary school because I was "weird" rather than my looks. I think it makes boys uncomfortable to fancy someone their peers have decided isn't fanciable so they react by attacking the person harder and calling them ugly etc. As a teen I took other peoples views to heart.

I thought Marianne and Connell were both believable characters but not likeable - but that's why she called it "normal people" surely?

I'm reading it for a book club. I'm not sure how a drop of water can be " beautifully crafted" but I find her style very pedestrian and dull.

There is little characterisation. I didn't get any sense of Connell being of a different class from Marianne. I'm not hugely bothered whether her depiction of working class characters is "dire". I'm not sure what an authentic depiction of working class characters would be anyway. The social class element is irrelevant anyway in this book so far as how they behave towards one another.

She is also a self declared Marxist ala Ash but she has an actual intelligence behind it

Declaring one is a Marxist seems to me to preclude having any intelligence. Name- dropping Austen doesn't mean she is remotely anything like Austen.

I'm mystified why this book is so popular.

I thought it was about how the same person can be an outsider in one group (school) and then find a place in another (uni) and that did resonate with me, and Connell ignoring her in school cos otherwise it would have been social death for him and how this is so important at that age.

And I broke up with someone at uni thro lack of communication and looking back I think 'why were we so stupid and emotionally illiterate' so I found it interesting. Altho at school Marianne is very blunt and direct but seems to lose this.

I really hated the book and the characters but wondered what the TV would do with it. It doesnt work. The herione is all wrong for the part. She is far too "pretty" and no where near edgy enough

I thought the book captured youthful angst and self absorbtion pretty well, and I enjoyed it enough to start 'Conversations with Friends' (now that really was annoying!) But I was staggered to hear it was being televised - never mind over 12 episodes, even if they are only 30 minutes each. I haven't watched yet and I'm not sure I'll bother.

That said, I think it's a bit harsh to criticise a 29 year old for not having much life experience and, if she keeps learning and can keep her feet on the ground, I'll be interested to see what she's writing in say, 10 years time. Being so successful so early probably won't help in that respect though.

@Shalom23 she’s so massively hyped - I can’t remember the last time a book got so much publicity - it’s not like she’s some young upstart that might get a break soon.

Agree her depiction of working class is ridiculous. Connell is an unbelievable character full stop really. I certainly never came across any boys in sixth form who were really clever and sensitive and into literature, but also handsome and sporty and in the popular gang, oh and had risen to this from a difficult background as child of a teenage single mum...it’s all a bit much.

I don’t think it’s terrible, it’s just that it is lauded as great, and it is so far from that. If it was sold as teenage chick lit I’d probably think it was fairly enjoyable.

Dido have you ever seen a still photo of a drop of water?

Denying Sally Rooney's intelligence is rather mean. She did win first place in Europe's most competitive debate. I find many similarities to Austen who I don't particular like but had to teach.

Also Dido there are a multitude of books that depict working class life. It is important in the novel , crucial, as a lot of Connell's depression comes from being in a very middle class university. The power in the relationship is at first reliant on the fact his mother is Ms cleaner. You may have missed these crucial points though they're not very subtle.

I think she introduced the class concept as a way of creating tension between them which is then subverted in the school context - she is lady of the manor at the beginning but in fact, despite his lower social class the power all lies with him as he has social capital at school. It’s not so much that her depiction of working class people is bad, it’s that her characterisation of Connell is bad - he’s just not believable.

The scholarships that Marianne and Connell were awarded at Trinity; Sally won it IRL.

I thought the pretty thing was interesting. I saw it as a comment on the privilege it gives women becuase of how we, as a society, prize it above all else...and how problematic that is. People treat Marianne better once she comes into her beauty/makes more of an effort with her looks... when they should have been nice to her regardless. I'm not quite sure that would have come across in the adaptation though, as the actress looks exactly the same throughout, whereas in reality people's looks do change quite dramatically in their late teens and early 20s

Marianne asks to be choked during sex
Does any woman actually enjoy being choked? Really?

Writers will come up with all sorts of reasons for their attractive heroines being perceived (in the universe of the book) as unattractive, but the reasons are seldom convincing, and really all it's doing is reinforcing the ugly ducking to swan literary stereotype, and the negative message that, to be a worthy protagonist, a woman must be attractive.

That has put me off many books, sometimes to the extent that I don't bother to read to the end. It's just so lazy and unchallenging.

That's probably why I more often used to identify with the male protagonists of novels. Their lives were not only more interesting but also more imaginable to me.

Dido have you ever seen a still photo of a drop of water?

Still not "crafted" is it?

I thought it was tedious and the characters were one dimensional, narcissistic and of no interest.

Also Dido there are a multitude of books that depict working class life

What does "working class life" mean anyway? What is this homogeneous class? Are you talking about say the people who are the support staff in my office? Are they "working class" and I'm not? Are you talking about people living in council high- rise blocks?

As for her intelligence anyone who seriously calls themselves a Marxist is an idiot.

And especially idiotic for a Marxist who presumably is now revelling in all the benefits capitalism has brought her.

Dido I reckon you should read The Intellectual Life of The Working Classes by Jonathan Rose to answer your question. It is a highly regarded work and will answer
I think water drops are crafted. It's an image I read in Graham Greene's The End of the Affair . hes a rather well regarded writer too.

You seem rather angry . It's fine to dislike a book without displaying nasty comments.

Why on earth did you read it if it so offended you?

Youngartist, yes it's the top academic scholarship in Ireland. I've two friends who also got, they're both senior professors in top unis now. You have to be brilliant to get it.

Shes no eejit.