T-slur implies existence of TIRFs?

[TyroSaysMeow]

Purely on a logical/linguistic level, the fact that TE is added to RF implies the existence of RFs who warrant the appellation TI, where inclusive is a synonym for wholly accepting and uncritical of.

But genderism and radical feminism are mutually incompatible, aren't they?

Has anyone anywhere actually managed to reconcile the two and produce a coherent theory of trans-inclusive radical feminism that doesn't beg the question yet?

I'm leaning towards the addition of TE being nothing more than a convenient way of distracting from the RF nature of the target of the slur, but I haven't trawled the whole internet. Are there people who'd fit the label TIRF, and if so, how do they reconcile it?

This post is prompted by someone accusing me of not knowing what a t-slur is, and me being struck by the hypocrisy in The Other Side clinging to dictionary definitions when it suits them. But is there such a thing as a tirf?

Don't look for logic, there isn't any. - after all, feminism is for females, even those who identify as men, so the TE is wrong on that point too.

It's an entirely inaccurate word, because Radical Feminism is inclusive of female trans-identifiers, ie transmen. We could accurately be called MERFs, Male Excluding Radical Feminists, but that wouldn't suit the Trans narrative. So, what TRAs call TERF is actually TIRF, but not the right sort of TIRF. We are METmIRFs.

When I first heard of all this nonsense one of my first thoughts was that it was eminently reasonable for radical feminists to regard it as men attempting to colonise womanhood itself. I still cannot conceive of any coherent radical feminist position that accepts men as being women.

So, basically, the acronym is used to avoid admitting that the real enemies are radical feminists. Because that wouldn’t look great.

Don't look for logic, there isn't any

Sorry to take issue, but there must be. Even if it's faulty logic, there has to be a sequence of reasoning that we can look at and say "ah, that bit right there is where you went a bit wonky."

So, what TRAs call TERF is actually TIRF, but not the right sort of TIRF.

Agreed - we are including the 'wrong' flavour of T by their standards.

So, basically, the acronym is used to avoid admitting that the real enemies are radical feminists. Because that wouldn’t look great.

This is my feeling too. But it's a big wide internet out there, and I wondered if there are any known tirfs - surely there must be, somewhere? Sod's law demands it if nothing else.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfeminism

It’s pure propaganda, isn’t it? The use of “Trans Exclusionary” implies that the default position (not just of rad fems, but of “right thinking people” generally) is to include males in the category of women if they claim to identify as women. They would have you believe that this is how it is, how it always has been, how it always should be. They are othering us, making us out to be the exception to their rule, excluding us from their appropriation of what supposed normality is.

That’s TRA logic. Lie. Distort. Misrepresent. Misinform. Take control of the narrative and twist it, say anything you can come up with, do whatever it takes to get your message out there. To propagate the idea that some members of the male sex “are” in some unassailable way actually women, and that everybody already thinks this and only extremists would disagree.

Framing the perception of this act of “excluding” people who logically were never ever meant to be included as a stance so out there that it needs its own label instead of being the actual default was a stroke of PR genius. It’s on similar lines to “cis”. Just shows what you can do when you have gallons and gallons of male privilege, and billionaire backers funding you in your noble campaign for “minority rights”.

I'm going to have to read that one again tomorrow, Qcng, because at the moment my inner literary critic keeps tripping over bits of it and shouting "obvious propaganda; whoever wrote this has a clear bias." But thank you.

raises hand

A few months ago, I came across the profile of a woman on a dating app. She called herself a non-exclusionary radical feminist. I really wanted to ask her about it, but at the same time I wasn't sure my brain could have handled the logical inconsistencies.

Nonny I want you to have asked. Non exclusionary of what?

I take it as a given that there must be logical inconsistencies, but no one who espouses it ever lays out the entire train. There's always a fudged bit, where we're expected to beg the question.

The next lines in her profile declared herself to be anti-terf, anti-swerf and pro fat liberation. 🤨🤨

So exclusionary towards women labelled swerf or terf then?

It hurts my head, it really does. Words mean things! You can't be non-exclusionary while excluding certain groups!I

As someone who was actually educated within the noughties post modernist university system of bollocks, I just want to also these people upside the head. Yes, meaning is socially constructed. No, that doesn't mean what you think it means. Argh.

(I also want to know why my autocorrect gremlin replaces slap with also)

Lovely to see you back Tyro 😘

Its surely impossible to be a radfem who doesn;t believe that biological sex makes a differnce in any area of life, or even believes sex does not exist. All RFs, therefor must be 'TE' (though not actually trans exclusionary...most I know have no issue at all with trans people. Its males that radfems do not centre..by virtue of..radical feminism)

I would even argue that libfems cannot really be 'doing' feminism whilst centreing male people and their sexual desires (even though liberal feminism has been bastardized recently to basically be...a group of people who work SOLELY on things that benefit men, and call such things empowering for women, and call that feminism). But certainly not radfems..

We are METmIRFs.

Nice ring to it that does. Metmirfs

There seems to be significant crossover between those who scream that feminism should not be 'trans exclusionary' and those who also claim femimism is 'for everyone' so feminists should focus on helping men win custody battles and such else they are just man haters and clearly not feminist as everyone agrees feminism is about everyone being equal, which means feminists should obviously fight for things that men want too else they are just nasty misandrists wh only care about women, or simply focus too much on women, which is NOT FEMINISM!

Given that radical feminism holds that the root of our oppression is in our biology, and that TRAs generally hold that idea to be transphobic, if there is anyone styling themselves a TIRF, I suspect they'll face the re-education squads in short order.

Comes down to people using labels like pin badges again, without real connection to what the labels actually refer to. Plenty of people call themselves 'feminist' without being aware of it's meaning beyond a nebulous concept of 'equality' and maybe 'choice', and plenty of people think 'radical feminism' means 'being extremely committed to feminism'.
If you combine those two perceptions, I think you have the faulty logic of anyone who might call themselves a RadFem but also be a TRA.

It’s pure propaganda, isn’t it? The use of “Trans Exclusionary” implies that the default position (not just of rad fems, but of “right thinking people” generally) is to include males in the category of women if they claim to identify as women. They would have you believe that this is how it is, how it always has been, how it always should be. They are othering us, making us out to be the exception to their rule, excluding us from their appropriation of what supposed normality is.

Yes! Exactly this. That was one of my first perceptions of how weird it all was before I understood the issues fully.

TIRF and TERF were coined by a liberal feminist, Viv Smythe, to distinguish between feminists who believe in magical gender essences and those who don't. TIRF has never been used, but the ugly-sounding 'terf' was quickly picked up and used as a slur by TRAs.

But yes I agree with what other people have said - a radical feminist believes women's oppression is grounded in their biology. Therefore all radicals feminists are by definition 'terfs' as they don't believe in the magical gender essence.

'Tirfs' are actually liberal feminists, and the person who coined the term didn't understand much about feminist theory.

NotTerf don't suppose you've a handy link to where she coined the terms, before I fall down the googling rabbit hole? It sounds like an interesting but if history, I'd like to read more about it.

So, no such thing as a tirf unless you don't understand what radical feminism is? Checks out with my experiences. Would be handy to be able to prove it by directing people to the source, as it were.

Hi TyroSaysMeow here's a couple:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/29/im-credited-with-having-coined-the-acronym-terf-heres-how-it-happened

I always assumed there was a slightly dog whistle element to the 'radical' and that is where the logic lies.

Yes we all now that radical comes from radix meaning root and that RF is a philosophy centred on changing patriarchal systems from the root up, rather than 'leaning in' but your average person who says things like 'I don't like feminists' or 'feminism has gone too far', without giving any thought to what they're actually saying - or knowing anything about feminism, don't know that.

They hear 'radical feminist' and they think 'extremist feminist' as in man haters who think all baby boys should be killed because they will inevitably grow up into rapists. Like religious radical fundamentalists - but with man hating as their central tenet.

so TERF is translated as Trans exclusionary extremist feminist by quite a large swathe of the population. I'd be willing to bet that half the TRAs throwing the slur around genuinely believe that radical means extreme in a feminist context.

That way the trans exclusionary bit piggy backs onto the fact that laypeople reading the slur are already inclined to think such women are crazed manhaters - and therefore being trans exclusionary MUST come from a similar 'hysterical' and 'illogical' standpoint. Therefore being trans exclusionary must be bad. Therefore trans women in women's spaces must be a good thing.

"Radical feminism" does have a particular political meaning, though. It refers to feminists who believe that there are fundamentally two classes in society, men and women, and that we live in a system of patriarchy in which men are the dominant class. Other issues of status such as ethnicity or the economic class system are subordinate to the patriarchy. Lesbian separatism was a distinct strand of radical feminism in the 70s and 80s, with a lot of radical feminists choosing to live their lives without any men in them at all.

The vast majority of people labelled TERFS today are not only not trans-exclusionary, they're not radical feminists either. Some of them aren't even feminists at all.