Help me - speaking out on trans issues

[crunchermuncher]

Hello I'm hoping for some help/ advice. The backlash to the Lynne Truss announcements is really getting to me - it's disinformation verging on propaganda.

I couldn't stand all the ranting on my fb feed so was prompted to post a moderate comment about how it might be in children's best interests to prevent them embarking on medication which may make them sterile, and I think it's worrying that puberty blockers are being presented by some groups as reversible with no side effects.

Predictably, I'm getting jumped all over for 'spouting nonsense' , told to educate myself and accused of wanting teenagers to commit suicide

Can anyone link me to any studies / official sources about the effects these drugs have? I know I've read about them but don't have sources to hand and am feeling quite stressed between trying to home school ( aaagh ) and getting a public dressing down online.

Feel relieved to have finally spoken out though. Please give me a virtual high five!

Transgender Trend have excellent resources on their website:

www.transgendertrend.com

Check out the science resources for a start.

Thank you!

Key finding by Professor Carl Heneghan's evidence review (published in BMJ 2019)

There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."

blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518188-BMJ-Prof-Carl-Heneghan-Evidence-Based-Medicine-Oxford-Panorama-Trans-Kids-Gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-Evidence-review-concludes-There-are-significant-problems

Well done @crunchermuncher.
Re: Teen suicides, the watchful waiting approach should actually be a way of reducing suicides in young people who feel very depressed about their physical selves (which we all know is basically life as a teen). For people who undertake potentially life-changing medical or surgical intervention without first exploring what is at the root of their dysphoria, to determine whether it is definitely the right course of action, many are discovering that their dysphoria or their depressed state was not related to their gender which they soon discover when they come out the other side of transition. For those who have undergone transition without proper therapy to understand the cause of their feelings, to then realise they feel the same after transitioning, this is leading to suicidal ideation in many.
So proper counselling to understand the cause of dysphoria is essential to help prevent suicide as well as potentially unnecessary interventions.

I think you will find they aren't interested in evidence.

Yes Apollo440 suspect you are right. Most people are sadly falling over themselves to condemn the nasty government without bothering to understand what's actually been said and why.

I think if the aggressive ag persists I might ask people to explain why they think using trans teenagers as guinea pigs for untested drugs is in any way supportive of them. No one is suggesting that under 18s should not be supported.

So sorry to hear this. I do usually turn the question round. For example instead of trying to defend why we need female only spaces I
ask ‘So what’s the argument FOR allowing males with penises to shower naked next to teenage girls in the women’s changing room’? Takes you off the defensive and the only answer to that question is a) I’ll be beaten up in the men’s (so the problem is male violence why don’t you work on that or campaign for a third space) or b) because that’s what I want and I don’t care how much this hurts/upsets women. I find it usually shuts them up.

Shouldnt it be the other way round? The people who believe its ok to use puberty blockers used off label need to provide evidence that the drugs used are safe and reversible, and explain why they support sterilising gay and non gender conforming kids.

Good for you! Keep going!

Thinking about what floral said a few days ago, Rather than evidence and facts, perhaps you need to be looking at the emotional angle?

The pain of of those who are detransitioning or stories from women who lived through the painful teenage years and are now scared of the "opportunities" given to young people which prevent them growing up as true to themselves ,
how those adults might feel that they are now being erased, that they are not considered valid people, that their experianecs are not valid because they don't fit the surgical narrative?

Thanks all for the info/ encouragement. It's a great antidote to all the nonsense!

well done crunchermuncher!

Well done Cruncher, though I think science will be wasted on people who believe it is possible for children to change their sex.

well done. Nothing useful to add but I do wonder what these idiots think the point of puberty is.

The 'you literally want trans kids to commit suicide' is a tactic thats been used for a while and I've come up against it myself.
I backed away at that point, looking back i feel like its another way of achieving no debate, by raising the stakes so high they just prove themselves to be beyond reason.
Theres not really a way of arguing anything or proving anything to these people that are so irrational and use abuse tactics as a go to method of 'winning' a debate.
They're arguing out in the open for sterilising and mutilating children, kind of proves the absurdity and irrationality of the starting point.

A trans person told me they had been raped and subject to terrible abuse which they linked to their lack of support in transitioning.
Awful for that person, but not a rational reason to experiment on children -how that would have prevented their experiences I'm not too sure. Didn't feel I could explore that as it seemed too heartless but as has been said above, it's using emotions to raise the stakes too high to question, leading to no debate.
I did however say I'd be very interested to read the studies concluding that puberty blockers are harmless and reversible ... and what do you know? 6 hours later not one reply. Hopefully the exchange will make anyone who is moderate but not well informed question the 'government makes anti trans announcement' nonsense blighting the media today, and question the 'puberty blockers are harmless' narrative.

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

This is an article about Lupron, a drug that is used off-licence as a puberty blocker. It has in the past been used on short children to make them grow taller, and there is now a well-documented number of side-effects being found in those children.

Since they were looking at the drug's side effects when it was given to children for being short rather than trans, I don't feel even the most ardent of transallies can claim it's all just anti-trans and can be ignored. These are the side effects children suffer, whatever the reason they are given the drug.

There are parallels with the MMR vaccine aren't there? One or two unrepresentative studies have been taken out of context and the dubious conclusions being used to scare people.

Just realised I've written Lynne Truss not Liz Truss. Doh.

A trans person told me they had been raped and subject to terrible abuse which they linked to their lack of support in transitioning.

The responsibility for sexual abuse is with the abuser.

No woman under 18 in the UK can request to be permanently sterilised and expect it to be approved. Unless the young woman identifies as a man.

No woman in the UK can request a double mastectomy, or even a breast reduction and expect it to be approved, unless the woman identifies as a man.

There are no testosterone products licensed for female use in the UK. Despite it being known that low testosterone in women post menopause if treated can boost a lowered sex drive. A woman may be able to persuade a GP to prescribe it, I would love to know numbers of women who have been prescribed it.
If the same woman identified as a man- prescription would be written.

Some men being very hirsute, they would not be given hair removal treatments on the NHS, unless they identify as a woman. Hirsute women who have PCOS might get laser treatment in some NHS areas.

Pubertal development is distressing for many children. But they would not be offered puberty blockers to treat their distress unless they identify as trans.

Why do so many NHS protocols get overridden as soon as the person identifies as trans? Where are the studies that prove that drugs and surgeries are the only option for distress related to gender dysphoria? Where are the studies pricing that the long term serious health implications are a good result? Why are trans identifying teenagers deemed automatically competent to agree to be sterilised when adult women are not?

Proving not pricing.

Not forgetting that under 18s are not supposed to have plastic surgery.

Sometimes the worry is not just that medical practioners have gone off track under pressure from trans activism, but that it seems some parents actively encourage a medical "solution" to what maybe (however extreme) the process that most teenagers go through trying to work out who they are in relation to the world. And it is those who manipulate those common feelings by implying any sense of alienation or not being totally sure of who you are or might become, would be resolved by starting the process of transitioning.

I realise that pointing out that plastic surgery is not meant to be open to under 18s is, like transitioning, been marketed as common place.