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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prostitution resource help please

54 replies

Mooncupdotcom · 13/04/2020 15:58

I'm supervising a sixth form essay (EPQ, like a mini dissertation) on the theme of selling sex and asking if a law that prohibits prostitution protects or infringes their rights. I've got my own very clear and FWR influenced view on this (!) but need to find a wide range of useful organisations or articles to help and I guess to balance my own view too... Could anyone offer me some links? Thanks

OP posts:
Mooncupdotcom · 13/04/2020 19:00

Hopeful bump for the evening crowd

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 13/04/2020 19:03

In haste

Nordic Model Now
Rachel Moran
Check out the government policy - there was a report a few years back I think

Lots of threads on here you could get links from them.

BusyProcrastinator · 13/04/2020 19:12

Ruhama in Ireland

Qcng · 13/04/2020 22:27

asking if a law that prohibits prostitution protects or infringes their rights

Their rights to what? A safe working environment, legal protections, workers rights like other workers?

Or their "right" to get fucked by a never-ending stream of men, be in contact with their body fluids and subject to physical dominance in an enclosed space for twenty quid?

Not meaning to be acerbic, it's a genuine question.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 13/04/2020 22:33

I hate the expression, ‘selling sex’. It makes it sounds like they’re selling tee shirt or other product. Call it what it is. They’re renting out their bodies for a man to fuck.

I0NA · 13/04/2020 23:00

I agree that the term “ selling sex” is very loaded. What about ”prostituted women”?

PositiveVibez · 13/04/2020 23:02

Have a read about some of the red light district stuff in Amsterdam and the female mayor who now wants to change the situation as although it is legalised, it's full of trafficked women.

Gronky · 13/04/2020 23:16

Is the title fixed? I can see two potential alternative ways of exploring the issue: how are 'rights' defined and do 'freedoms' (which seems a more accurate descriptor than 'rights' in the original question) extend to the freedom to cause oneself harm? Potential comparisons might include drugs and extreme body modifications. Another line of inquiry might be why prostitution, in many countries where it is prohibited, essentially becomes legal when you point a camera a those involved.

hoodathunkit · 14/04/2020 10:57

Ruhama in Ireland

Seriously?

www.irishtimes.com/news/laundry-orders-run-sex-workers-aid-group-1.606313

hoodathunkit · 14/04/2020 11:25

Or their "right" to get fucked by a never-ending stream of men, be in contact with their body fluids and subject to physical dominance in an enclosed space for twenty quid?

For the most vulnerable of women who engage in prostitution, those with drug addictions, the British system of prescribing diamorphine has been shown to provide the safety and security that these women need to assist them in existing prostitution.

If feminists genuinely care about the situation of the most vulenrable women in society they should get busy with supporting the reintroduction of the British system ASAP.

One consequence of this would be to free up olice time and resources so as to better deal with and investigate rapes and sexual assaults.

You're welcome

Other vulnerable women, although not quite as vulnerable as those with drug addictions are mothers living in poverty.

I recently had a conversation with a woman, already in FT employment, who is the mother of an adult child with severe learning difficulties and physical disabilities. She disclosed that she enganged in occasional prostitution in order to pay for essential items that she cannot otherwise afford.

She told me that she was happy doing this and that it was the best way she had found to pay for things she needed, an example of one of those things being a high quality mattress for her son that she would otherwise not be able to afford. His existing matress had been saggy and causing him pain.

Apparently she has several "regulars" who she sees from time to time and she believes that they share friendly, mutually supportive relationships.

I am unconvinced about the genuine nature of all of these relationships, however I do belive that not all men who pay for sex are rapists and monsters.

As with so many issues, there is a continuum of exploitation, some is extreme at one end, at the other is people engaging in mutually consensual comercial sex.

People deluding themselves is common in all aspects of life, inculdiing in the sex insustry.

Are these men really her friends? Honestly I do not know. Speaking from personal experience of such things, there may be elements of genuine friendships and there may be, and probably is, delusion as to exploitation.

These things are nuanced.

My main concern is always, always to support the most vulnerable women in society and this means listening to them and to their concerns.

I will also always, to the best of my ability, expose pimps, traffickers and abusers who get involved in these debates, whether they are involved in sex workers unions and rights organisations or involved in organisations campaigning for prohibition.

hoodathunkit · 14/04/2020 11:55

An interesting video here shows the fraudulent, incredibly dodgy, self-proclaimed "police whistleblower" Jon Wedger, attending a protest alongside his supporters from the Crossroads Womens' Centre.

The Crossroads Women's Centre is the umbrella organisation for Women Against Rape, Wages Due Lesbians, Global Women's Strike and, among others the English Collective of Prostutitues (ECP)

I actually am more in agreement with the ECP's position on legislative reform (they are pro decriminalisation) than of Ruhama's position.

I am completely opposed to legalisation.

I always consider all of my perspectives to be provisional, as there is always much to learn about any issue, including this one.

One of the reasons I have never been involved with the ECP is because of the cult like dynamics associated with it (which I have experienced first hand, leading to a swift retreat) and the very strange and concerning associations with people like Wedger.

exponential · 14/04/2020 16:11

I am afraid Mumsnet is not the place to come for this sort of information-especially the feminist threads which are dominated by radical feminist views.

There are two recent reports on prostitution one from the Home affairs select committee on Prostitution here

The select committee itself wanted more information on the nature and prevalence of prostitution in the UK reported last October. The report is The nature and prevalence of prostitution and sex work in England and Wales today here

As for articles which are not behind publisher paywalls (as most are) and address the issues you want to raise I would suggest
Pitcher J 2014 The impact of different regulatory models on the labour conditions, safety and welfare of indoor-based sex workers Criminology and Criminal Justice here

Scoular J et al 2019 Beyond the gaze and well beyond Wolfenden: The practices and rationalities of regulating and policing sex work in the digital age Journal of Law and Society here

Weitzer R 2011 Sex trafficking and the sex industry: The need for evidence-based theory and legislation Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology here

O’Connell Davidson J 2002 The rights and wrongs of prostitution here

Should be enough to get going.

hoodathunkit · 14/04/2020 16:47

I am afraid Mumsnet is not the place to come for this sort of information-especially the feminist threads which are dominated by radical feminist views.

So mumsnet would no-platform feminsists who don't conform to a certain type of feminism and who point out that some abolitionist feminists have a history of enslaving women?

You'll be wanting to no-platform me for pointing out Germaine Greer's promotion of paedophilia next.

Here's the thing. I will read anything, revise my views accordingly.

My position has always been that I will support the most vulnerable women in practical ways that help them and stop them from getting hurt and exploited.

If some feminists are engaging in campaigns that hurt vulnerable women, as has happened with initiatives to criminalise punters, as I have seen happen with my own eyes, I will call it out and explain why. As I have done previously.

I always, absolutely always, comment from a place of understanding that there are limits to my knowledge and experience.

I just wish that others would do the same.

There is much about this issue that I have not yet reported about including a lot relevant to my research on cults.

I will read the links you have provided, reflect on them and come back and comment.

When I have a moment will provide some links of my own.

hoodathunkit · 14/04/2020 16:52

actually apologies exponential

I have not yet read your links so I don't know whether you are being critical of my post or of mumsnet having a certain bias, which I know it does have.

I will read your links and report back, however I have an absoloute mountain of related links and screen shots about cults and the abuse of vulnerable people (mostly women) that I am also working on

Socrates11 · 14/04/2020 19:28

To support the rad fems domination (the wrong type of feminism is it?!) of this thread/topic, here's a Feminist Current review by Louise Perry of Julie Bindle's 2017 book, 'The Pimping of Prostitution: Abolishing the Sex Work Myth

www.feministcurrent.com/2017/09/27/julie-bindels-pimping-prostitution-destroys-sex-trade-myths-unforgiving-detail/

Socrates11 · 14/04/2020 19:37

Interesting that Chair of the House of Commons report (linked to above) Keith Vaz had this said about him,

“The core issues in this inquiry are relatively simple; but Mr Vaz has done his best to complicate, obfuscate and confuse the inquiry through arguments of little merit and documentation of dubious relevance.”

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keith-vaz-cocaine-labour-mp-suspension-prostitutes-commons-watchdog-latest-a9174471.html

stumbledin · 14/04/2020 23:35

There is also the work of the APPG on Prostitution appgprostitution.uk/inquiry/

There is also Behond the Streets beyondthestreets.org.uk/ not totally sure of their politics but they talk about finding routes out of prostitution for women. And the organised the Alternative Jack the Ripper tours ie one that talks about the women murdered not the glorification of the male killer.

There is this report from Bristol University www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2019/october/sex-work-report.html not necessarily in line with your views but reseaarch shows most women end up in prostitution because of lack of secure finances.

There was also a report from the Conservative Human Rights group which www.scribd.com/document/419657465/Cphrc-Consent-Report-Digital-1 which you can download if your have membership. But according to Equalilty Now 2the broad range of stakeholders providing evidence were in agreement that prostitution is something that ultimately should be abolished, and that external factors – primarily the need to survive – have a coercive impact on freedom of choice in the context of sexual consent." www.womensgrid.org.uk/?p=10068

And there was a Women and Equalities Committee Investigation into Prostitution but I cant find the results!! www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/news-parliament-2017/prostituion-launch-17-19/

exponential · 14/04/2020 23:56

For the sake of clarity the Home Affairs Select Committee on prostitution (chaired by the disgraced Keith Vaz) had ten other members, including at one time Keir Starmer.

The inquiry referred to in the link by @socrates(above) is not the Select committee on Prostitution but an enquiry into the conduct of Vaz in respect of possible solicitation of male prostitutes and the supply of drugs and the lies and obfuscations produced by Vaz.

The Radical feminists have attacked the Home Affairs select Committee report (with the implication that its opinion was swung by Vaz) because it did not recommend the Nordic model (nor did it recommend decriminalisation) but made clear our strong view that the first step of changing the existing legislation on soliciting, and on brothel-keeping as it relates to sex workers sharing premises, should be taken by the Government as a matter of urgency

exponential · 15/04/2020 00:31

The report produced by Conservative Party Human Rights Commission on the Global Sex Trade referred to by @stumbledin has been roundly criticised by academics here and even by Conservatives here .

It is a prime example of policy produced evidence-where the evidence is produced to support a preformed conclusion-the reports by the APPG are the same.

traceyracer · 15/04/2020 01:50

@OP if you're looking for a balanced view on the topic and a look at both sides, mumsnet is not really the place to look.

Here are a couple of sites by prostitutes who campaign for decriminalisation:
www.scot-pep.org.uk/

www.iusw.org/

Socrates11 · 15/04/2020 09:15

Few newspaper articles re:Holbeck the managed zone in Leeds.

Teacher abducted & raped
www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/school-teachers-harrowing-account-being-14959692

More police and CCTV needed in an area of increased crime (this report is one of several the paper did on the topic)
www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/crime/i-was-raped-street-holbeck-women-living-around-leeds-managed-approach-zone-speak-out-920212

Newspaper article with a mother & daughter perspective.
southleedslife.com/katie-and-her-mum-helen-tells-their-story-of-holbeck-prostitution-managed-zone/

Incidentally Peter Sutcliffe killed several women during late 70s in Leeds. Sutcliffe claimed he thought the women were prostitutes, as though that means it is alright for certain women to be beaten to death. Crock of shit obviously.
www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/yorkshire-ripper-files-why-chapeltown-leeds-was-hunting-ground-peter-sutcliffe-1757731

exponential · 15/04/2020 13:25

@ stumbledin And there was a Women and Equalities Committee Investigation into Prostitution but I cant find the results!.

There were none, the committee stopped when the general election was called although the evidence it received is available here

By my count there have been about 12 enquiries into prostitution launched in the various UK parliaments .
Scotland: There have been three consultations on prostitution initiated by MSPs in Scotland; two aimed at criminalizing sex purchase (Trish Goodman 2010, Rhoda Grant 2012) and one proposing decriminalisation (Jean Urquhart 2015). Although summaries of the responses (provided by the Bills proposers) are available here & here & here the entire evidence has been removed from the websites-which prevents one seeing how the conclusions are often at odds with the evidence.

A Scottish Government report (2016 Exploring available evidence on prostitution in Scotland via practitioner-based Interviews here failed to interview a single prostitute

N.Ireland Lord Morrow introduced a clause (Clause 6 designed to prohibit the purchase of sex in NI) into the Human trafficking and exploitation bill and at least here the full evidence (> 130 contributions over 500 pages) was published (see pgs 741-1266 ) here .

England and Wales: The APPG (a self-selecting group of MPs opposed to prostitution and in favour of the Nordic model) published a report (2014 Shifting the Burden here proposing the “Sex buyer law” after calling for evidence but failing to publish anything but selected excerpts so it was impossible to gauge the balance of opinion of views.

Their second report (Behind Closed doors: organised sexual exploitation in England and Wales 2018 here was even worse and did not properly reference the evidence it used to support their preformed conclusions.

In 2016 The Home affairs Select committee on prostitution despite its prejudiced terms of reference did produce a balanced report and did publish the evidence which is still available here.

Following on from that report another report was commissioned by the Home Office and the Office of the South Wales Police from researchers at the University of Bristol on Prostitution and sex work: nature and prevalence in England and Wales. here

The Conservative Party Human Rights Commission has also published a report in July 2019 “ Limits of consent: prostitution in the UK here

In March 2019 Frank Field MP announced an enquiry by the Works and Pensions select committee into “Survival Sex Work” here
Earlier this year The APPG group on prostitution launched an ”Inquiry into trafficking for the global sex trade” here
The woman and equality select Committee is launching a report on prostitution here

So since 2010 we have had at least 12 enquiries into prostitution all taking evidence and going over much the same ground. Most were in initiated by those in favour of the Nordic model and in the reports it is pretty obvious that the evidence that does not support that line was ignored or omitted and the views of prostitutes (who are those most affected by the proposed legislation) was completely sidelined.

stumbledin · 15/04/2020 14:39

My minds gone blank but does anyone remember the terrible killings somewhere in Essex / Suffolk. After the killer was found there was a local initiative to try and get women off the streets.

There was a male police officer who was credited with having a good approach.

So worth looking at.

The suggestions I am making are not necessarily ones I agree with but I thought the request was for publish material.

On the other hand I am not giving any links to pimps posing as sex workers, and certainly nothing linked to ECP. The always argue women have no choice, so need to make it safer. They never ever put forward solutions to suggest how women should never be in a position of being so short of money they think prostitution is their only option.

(Intrigued hoodathunkit by you reference to them. They / the Centre have been exposed a number of time for their cultish behaviour, but they continue to survive, contribute to the media and MP enquiries, and are the only Women's Centre that somehow had enough money to buy a building)