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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Covid-19 and purity spirals

684 replies

DreadPirateLuna · 09/04/2020 13:54

Covid-19 is a very serious illness which threatens our most vulnerable and risks overwhelming the NHS. We should all do what we can to flatten the curve and save lives. People whose behaviour risks lives (e.g. urban residents traveling out to holiday homes in rural communities) should face criticism and sanctions.

However, I can't help feeling that some of the outrage at some behaviours is less about reducing the spread and more about getting caught in a "purity spiral".

Take all the outrage about people in parks. Fresh air and sunshine is good for physical and mental health, it improves the immune system which is particularly important during an epidemic! Many urban residents have no other source of open space except the local park. The ability to get outside can be lifesaving for victims of DV. Risks of contracting disease are very low if you keep your distance from others outside your household.

Yet I've seen photos of walkers and family groups in parks, keeping far away from others, but accused of selfishness and killing the elderly and disrespecting the NHS. Parks in London have been closed, meaning more congestion of other areas and residents confined to homes, which is damaging for reasons outlined above.

And it's usually (though not exclusively) women and esp mothers who get blamed. Those selfish Karens and their broods.

A more sensible solution would be to allow restricted access to the parks. Maybe allow only locals in nearby flats without gardens. But it seems we're not doing sensible these days.

OP posts:
MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 12/04/2020 12:31

I really do sympathise Hooves. I feel lucky at the moment, because I live with my DH and DCs, and we're all in a position to be able to shield together.

I don't think that is likely to be the case for a year or more, so have already decided that (as long as I stay well) I will homeschool them.

This, frankly, will be fucking awful, as they won't be able to see their friends or lead a normal life.

The other option, though, is to not be able to see me for a year. I will not put that choice onto them, so I am choosing.

It is shit, but surely it's better to try to accept reality then make a plan, than to keep shouting at the world that they're killing people by buying wine.

I'm sorry for you, but I also think you're bonkers.

nolongersurprised · 12/04/2020 12:37

If my life, for the next year, is to live cloistered indoors isolated from family and friends then there is no point in being alive

Sorry Hooves, I replied above before I read this and I would have been less direct.

There’s nothing wrong with hoping for the best outcome but why not plan for the worst as well? Loosen some of your self-imposed restrictions, whilst staying within the government’s guidelines. If you are the poster who wasn’t buying hair-due because it took an extra second to get from the shelves, maybe treat yourself to that. Or a nice non-alcoholic drink.

MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 12/04/2020 12:45

Anyway, I listened to the purity-spirals documentary, and agree that what is happening now has many parallels.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 12/04/2020 13:12

You are pinning your hopes on a non-specified treatment that hasn’t been identified or studied or tested and as such is wishful thinking.

No I'm not. You're assuming things about me with zero basis. I said that a treatment is more likely before any vaccine and I think that's true. People believing that a vaccine is 12 - 18 months away are the ones indulging in magical thinking. Me thinking a drug treatment is possible isn't me pinning my hopes on it. I think this will be a public health management issue that will require curtailment of some civil liberties, making COVID19 notifiable and possibly enforcing quarantine in order to control it.

MilesJuppIsMyBitch

It's easy for you to say though isn't it because you've got your family with you. Would you be quite so resigned if they insisted that you had to.live apart from your children? I doubt it. What kind of plan would you suggest I make? To not see my children for years? No more Christmases with them? Miss my daughter's graduation? Not see my parents again? I won't do that.

If you are the poster who wasn’t buying hair-due because it took an extra second to get from the shelves, maybe treat yourself to that. Or a nice non-alcoholic drink.

Oh right, yep. That'll make up for me not seeing my children - dyeing my hair. Of course. How silly of me. Or maybe have a nice non alcoholic drink - hmm. No of any that contain neither sugar nor sweeteners? Maybe water? Imagine, if I both dye my hair and have a glass of water I probably being miss my children or my parents.

Tell me, if they separated you from your children would dyeing your hair make that ok?

R0wantrees · 12/04/2020 13:25

I feel that I went through the anger and denial stage really early

I found this article interesting as it maps current feelings with grief patterns:

(extract)
"Understanding the stages of grief is a start. But whenever I talk about the stages of grief, I have to remind people that the stages aren’t linear and may not happen in this order. It’s not a map but it provides some scaffolding for this unknown world. There’s denial, which we saw a lot of early on: This virus won’t affect us. There’s anger: You’re making me stay home and taking away my activities. There’s bargaining: Okay, if I social distance for two weeks everything will be better, right? There’s sadness: I don’t know when this will end. And finally there’s acceptance. This is happening; I have to figure out how to proceed.

Acceptance, as you might imagine, is where the power lies. We find control in acceptance. I can wash my hands. I can keep a safe distance. I can learn how to work virtually." (continues)
hbr.org/2020/03/that-discomfort-youre-feeling-is-grief

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 12/04/2020 13:29

Explain to me then how you reach acceptance when acceptance needs to be - I can't go outside, I can't see my children, I can't see my parents, I can't see my friends, I can't work, I can't access medical treatment necessary to ease my symptoms or stop my health from deteriorating.

What form does acceptance take in this instance?

MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 12/04/2020 13:38

R0wantrees I read that article last week, and agree that it's bang on.

We have this unprecedented (inter)national grief to deal with, and people (understandably) don't know how to cope.

I liked the interview with George Alagiah where he said that having had to to deal with recent cancer treatment, it had helped him to accept the current situation more quickly.

I feel like that too. A few years ago I would have wailed "why me?". Now it's "why not me"?

I don't think though, that the journey to acceptance can be forced or hurried, which leads me to think that the public castigation and shaming is going to go on for a good while yet.

Dances · 12/04/2020 13:39

I don't think the government will sacrifice the economy long term, and as there is no solution pending, the restrictions will be lifted, and come what may.

And a lot of people are going to die. The US will be worse

Dances · 12/04/2020 13:41

Boris has certainly secured his 'Legacy'

R0wantrees · 12/04/2020 13:41

I liked the interview with George Alagiah where he said that having had to to deal with recent cancer treatment, it had helped him to accept the current situation more quickly.

I feel like that too. A few years ago I would have wailed "why me?". Now it's "why not me"?

Yes, I can completely relate to that.
I hadn't heard Alagiah's interview.

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/04/2020 13:42

making COVID19 notifiable

It already is - unfortunately that's not enough for many insurance companies who are using their pre covid disease lists to refuse cover but I digress

They can't put us into full lockdown every two months and so another way of doing this has to be found.

I'm personally thinking it's going to be along the lines of (and this is just my view)
-We need to get people back to work because this level of lockdown with furloughing etc just isn't economically viable for long. Horrid, but true.
-most businesses will reopen, probably with some exceptions; maybe travel/hotels will be very restricted, restaurants, large gathering places like cinemas and theatres. The government might continue a furlough scheme but it will be much more targeted to those not permitted to open.

-Schools will reopen, possibly childcare over summer then at least primary schools after summer (or possibly just before in England/Wales). Lots of parents will not send their children.
-Things like festivals will stay cancelled
-people will still be advised to work from home where possible to reduce speed of spread
-household quarantine rules will stay in place, but testing more easily available, mostly to enable...
-contract tracing (probably with the use of an app) will be used to try and slow the speed of the spread as people will be told to quarantine if they're likely to have been infected.
-Vulnerable and elderly will be advised to continue distancing (sorry)
-Temp hospitals will remain open specifically for covid.
-we'll probably get at least one more lockdown, but the time between the lockdowns will gradually increase as with each cycle more people will have already been exposed so the speed of spread will be slower (as some will likely be immune)

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 12/04/2020 13:42

I don't think the government will sacrifice the economy long term, and as there is no solution pending, the restrictions will be lifted, and come what may.

Really? You think people will just be left to die wherever they are?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 12/04/2020 13:45

StatisticallyChallenged

I broadly agree. The exit plan will be a version of test, track, trace and quarantine with an app used.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 12/04/2020 13:45

I think you are probably right about a lot of that statistically

R0wantrees · 12/04/2020 13:46

As someone in the shielding group with suspected CV19, I agree that it seems likely that people like me will probably have to lead very limited lives for about a year - nothing else makes any sense. I know it sounds gloomy, but in my personal circumstances I would consider that a win. (I'm feeling much better, if it's of any comfort to any fellow shieldies out there).

MilesJupp Im glad you are feeling much better. Long may that last.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 12/04/2020 13:46

I think for some people they didn't quite accept that the virus was going to come to where they live until it did, and that's part of why they're stuck in the denial or bargaining stages. If you were paying attention to the news coming out of Wuhan back in December and filtering it through the knowledge of global supply chains and the movement of people and the way the Chinese government operates and the history of other pandemics then it was clear that it might not be containable, and that it probably wouldn't stay a just-in-China problem for long, and so there was a period of several months in which to accept that it was probably coming and would hit your area sooner or later. We were lucky that SARS didn't spread further and faster than it did, and epidemiologists have been warning that we might not be so lucky next time for quite a while. It seems like the more connections someone has with the parts of Asia that were hit badly by SARS the quicker they realized what this might turn into. For some people though they seem to have either sort of assumed it could be contained in a small geographical area or to have kind of known that it might not be possible to do that but tried to convince themselves that somehow it would be, right up until it was no longer possible to pretend that it would never reach their doorstep.

It's weird, the psychology of all this.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 12/04/2020 13:47

Oh how hilarious. I've literally been saying exactly that all day yesterday and again today and been argued against. Now someone else has said it and it's "yes, I agree".

Dances · 12/04/2020 13:48

I agree with you Statistically

More makeshift hospitals.

My friend, who does mass catering, has just started work at one of these, to feed the NHS staff.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 12/04/2020 13:49

Well, I won't be accepting or "giving up" as I call it.

Living as a prisoner in my home is not how I intend to live

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 12/04/2020 13:50

More makeshift hospitals

I wonder if these will count as part of the 40 extra hospitals

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 12/04/2020 13:51

Who's going to staff these hospitals if the virus is running through the population a lot of hospital staff will be affected too

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 12/04/2020 13:52

I worry for the long term mental health of the HCPs who survive this, the impact of not being able to save people. That's always an issue for people in that field, obviously, but looking at say the worst hit parts of Italy and the interviews with doctors that have come out of that it seems like at the moment they just can't afford to let themselves break down, but at some point they will.

I keep thinking of the artwork that came out of the periods where the plague was sweeping through Europe, and the sort of societal trauma that you can see in some of it.

Dances · 12/04/2020 13:53

Where were you saying that businesses would start back?

I think you were mostly ranting about selfish people drinking wine.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 12/04/2020 13:56

Where were you saying that businesses would start back?

Err, where I said when lockdown lifts they will have to implement testing, tracking, tracing and quarantine.

What do you think "lifting lockdown" means?

Dances · 12/04/2020 13:58

What was that about 40 extra hospitals Rufus?
I hadn't seen an actual number