Women that give in to misogyny ?

[1ForAllnAllFor1]

Hi all,

I’m just wondering how do you handle women that give in to misogyny and put like pressure on other women to do the same/bully them because they have deduced that it’s the only way to avoid conflict... and then they even label you as a trouble maker and dissociate form u because you decide to no give in.

How do you cope in an environment full of this?

I was an enforcer in my early 20's and had moved on and eventually broke free completely around my early 30's, so I would agree that trajectory certainly happens, yes. I just think that the longer a woman is in role, the harder it is to move.

In secular terms I think of certain academics, for example, who have garnered power and prestige solely off a platform of enforcement on other women - the longer they are in place as enforcers, the less likely they will want to move from that. In fact, with older women, it's possibly the only leverage they have in a male dominated system where youth and sexual availability may be prized by the power wielding men.

I’ve seen exactly that. Older women who have the position to be calling stuff out and being a voice for younger ones instead being a significant part of the issue.

I think there would have to be a significant loss of personal benefit for a long term enforcer to shift.

Glad to hear you are recovering, Babdoc.

one of the guys kept finding it amusing to send pornographic gifs, memes and clips

That is sexual harassment, AnduinsGirl, and you have every right to object. I would not stay in a group where that was accepted. But why should you be the one to leave a group you enjoy? Can you get the backing of any of the others to tell this sleazeball to stop harassing you?

I've just had a woman promoted into a lead role over four much more competent women as she plays the game with the men. Tight skirts and leather boots and lots of flirting.

Is she using her sexuality well to compete in a patriarchy or making a deal at the expense of other women.

It's hard enough watching men getting promoted with little talent but loads of pals, frankly it's even more hurtful when women do it too.

You feel doubly alone.

It's hard enough watching men getting promoted with little talent but loads of pals, frankly it's even more hurtful when women do it too.

Can you explain why you feel it is "more hurtful" for undeserving women to be promoted than it is for undeserving men to be promoted?

Anyone wondering why women give into misogyny only have to look for a second at the situation around the lockdown. People are willing to give up huge amounts of their freedom on the promise that if they behave, they will get a completely unspecified reward. The actual reward is likely to be a destroyed economy, huge unemployment, an increase in crime and poverty, a great deal of suffering among certain sectors of society (women are more at risk, as ever) and the opportunity to catch covid in November rather than April. And yet people are willing to submit and suffer because the government has frightened the shit out of them.

It turns out, if you put people in a position of fear and limit their options, they modify their behaviour in order to cope and then justify that behaviour to themselves.

Women's acceptance of misogyny is a totally understandable survival tactic in a world where men regularly demonstrate the consequences of not complying with their rules. It takes a huge amount of bravery to figure out that not complying may be dangerous but also has major rewards.

It should also be noted the extent to which people are willing to police each other under lockdown and repeat mantras like 'stay home save lives' without thinking what that actually means. There is comfort in having someone do your thinking for you and lay down clear, restrictive rules that allow you not to challenge yourself. The lockdown shows just how willing people are to embrace certainty (being confined to their homes) in the face of fear and uncertainty.

It's amazing women ever managed to stand up to patriarchy really, considering how comprehensively it fucked with them.

You also get the young, woke women who enforce it. There’s a feminist organisation in my city - led by young women. They have articles on abortion that manage to avoid using the word woman throughout. They had a weekend cultural festival just before lockdown and their keynote for the entire weekend was Munroe Bergdorf. The person who said women should not centre reproductive rights as it is exclusionary. Of all the modern feminist writers, that was the person they wanted to keynote.

But I get it. As a young woman I didn’t dare read Dworkin. I knew if I did I’d never want to associate with men and that I’d be angry. It was much more easy psychologically to be an apologist and a liberal feminist. The Rad Fem arm have always been disliked - they are too threatening to the patriarchy.

I’ve moved to the radical arm only after my own daughters moved into teenage hood and I realised so little had changed... it’s just more hidden.

Not mad with the girls who pose with the selfies though. We are patriarchally determined and it’s hard to break free of it and you’re often punished for it. The queer politics playing out in young people contains many of the people discomforted and fighting against the shit - it really does (often appropriated by the older end of activists). Very interesting social phenomena playing out in all these young girls declaring themselves trans and non-binary. And also the numbers of young women who say they are bi and lesbian.

Can you explain why you feel it is "more hurtful" for undeserving women to be promoted than it is for undeserving men to be promoted?

It’s not my personal situation but I think it’s fact that a woman has chosen to actively collaborate with a sexist system to achieve personal gain rather than work with women to bring it down. It undermines the efforts made to push back. But at the same time I can understand why individual women do it. Very difficult to process.

Babdoc. 💪💐💐🍹

OverMy oh wow! Yes I do find that so hurtful.

My situation us outing, but the woman/women I’m talking about have been subject to extreme level of misogynistic abuse or unfair treatment, I spent my life trying to be there for her and get her out of it. I felt proud of her when she found herself...

I found myself almost on the borderline of falling victim to the same things, and she was in the position to help me.. but she didn’t. Or at least that’s my perspective. And when I spoke to her about why, she believes I’m wrong to stand up for myself and that I should accept that this is life m..

More so, she has been dissociating from me and ensuring everyone knows that she is NOT a feminist.

It’s a bit complicated but her desire to avoid conflict with men that are influential in her and my life has taken over her loyalty to me and her sense of care for my wellbeing and yes it’s very hurtful.

I don’t know why it’s doubly hurtful when a woman is a misogynist than when a man is. It shouldn’t feel this way. But it does because I too see it like a bit of betrayal of the sisterhood. But I should probably change my thinking

This thread might be good reading about your situation www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3874319-Women-that-give-in-to-misogyny

That’s one of the funniest things I’ve seen on Mumsnet

It seems I've missed quite a few things while away from Mumsnet. Slowly catching up on the threads. Glad to hear you are on the mend, Babdoc!! Get well soon.

In response to the thread... I think I've had to accept certain constants in life as I get older -

• Attractive people will usually have better opportunities in life and are more likely to be promoted, given lenient treatment etc.

• Women and men who are good at sucking up to those in power, either through sycophancy or using their sexual attractiveness, will also have better opportunities, more likely to be promoted or get favourable treatment.

• The vast majority of people spend little or no time thinking / reflecting critically on their lives. It doesn't mean they are incapable of doing so - but it's not something that comes naturally to us as a species.
  Most people follow the same religion their parents and grandparents did. Most people perform the same rituals, traditions and customs that their family and friends do. People, in general, don't tend to question why they do the things they do or why they believe the things they do - this includes political beliefs and tribal / ideological positions. The same goes for the sexist / gendered ideas and roles associated with women and men.

It's difficult (and almost impossible) to critically analyse every belief or idea we hold, so the default is to absorb the prevailing ideas around us. If we love our family and friends and think they are 'good' people, then we think that by extension their views and beliefs are also 'good'. If we start to examine some of these beliefs too closely and it starts opening up holes and questions, it makes us uncomfortable because it can have all sorts of implications - we are wrong, what we've been taught is wrong therefore our parents, families, friends and communities might also be wrong about certain things, which means ourselves and those we feel most affinity with might not be as 'good' as we think.

I don't think it's women giving into misogyny as such; it never occurs to them to reflect on their beliefs and behaviours about themselves and the world around them. I would say the same goes for most men. If some do start thinking and questioning things, it leads to very uncomfortable feelings, and people generally avoid continuing down such a path because they would rather have a quiet, comfortable life rather than deal with opening a can of worms.

A proportion of people will question and rebel and go against the grain, sometimes at great personal cost, but it's obvious this the not the norm, hence why strong willed women tend to stand out.

Depending on your situation, you can avoid getting into contentious arguments or interactions with those women who are keen to preserve the status quo. They can't 'make' you do anything you don't want to, so continue being yourself. You also have the option of cutting out toxic personalities and nurturing better company. People can maintain friendships even if they differ on some issues, but it's not always possible, especially if one side insists on being disrespectful or undermining your standing in the community or social circle etc.

It's hard enough watching men getting promoted with little talent but loads of pals, frankly it's even more hurtful when women do it too.

I posted the above comment.

My answer feels wet. Because I hoped for solidarity from another woman who panders to the sexism to get ahead, because I had hoped these moments were more the exception than the norm, because it feels so unfair.

But ultimately because she simpers at the rest of us while doing it and is quite proud of herself. She knows that we know what's she doing and that is very disempowering whereas the men take the entitlement as normal.