Women's Network

[notanurse2017]

Hi. I am hoping for some advice. I joined our organisation's new Women's Network. Was really enthusiastic that at last this was happening. My organisation is led by men and I welcomed an opportunity to have my voice heard.

Then we had the first meeting. Membership was discussed. It's to include anyone who identifies as a woman at the present time. Specifically it is also to include anyone who feels comfortable in women's clothing (yes this really eas stated).

I did not feel able to disagree with this. Apart from asking what women's clothing looked like. But I know that I can't be part of this. I want to be able to state why I am so uncomfortable with this but am struggling to find the right words.

The organisation I work in is a NHS arm's length body. I know that whatever I say will become common knowledge. I am not ashamed of my beliefs but I don't want to be in the position of becoming embroiled into a wider discussion. But part of me is thinking fuck it, I need to stand up for what I know is right.

I would really appreciate your thoughts about how I might respond to this. Thank you.

I might push a bit on this issue of clothing - does this mean that women who wear men's clothing aren't welcome?

I'd be asking what people's clothing choices have to do with the purpose of the group.

It might lead into more of a discussion of who should be included beyond just clothing. How many women in the organisation are in the group, and who they want representing them.

be thankful it's a 'women's network'.

In most govt departments, they're now 'gender equality networks'. The most senior civil servant in the gender equality network in my dept is a man and the majority of the senior leads are too. The paper they are being informed by is some Oxford paper (which the senior civil servant fed into) is called 'Collaborating with Men'. And they issue regular bulletins saying 'feminism is not just for women. Gender equality is for everyone!' It's like that old joke that we'd all have equality if men took over feminism for us.

For info, the vast majority of the measures recommended in the strategy papers are about women.

Sorry not to be more help. I'd be sitting there seething too. But I'm too much of a wimp to speak up against all this sexist bollocks of 'women's clothing = woman'.

I'm most comfortable in T-shirt and jeans, same as most of my male colleagues. I'm pretty sure it's the breasts and periods vs penis which are the main differentiators. I would focus on asking them what clothing has to do with it all - after all, men wear kilts and sarongs and other dress-like outfits in various parts of the world. Clothing is all just social convention. I might pointerest out that where it's pertinent, it's that protective kit is usually cut to a male default figure, so many women struggle to get overalls or boots etc that fir them well, and are more likely to experience clothing related accidents as a result. (I think there's a section on this in Invisible Women.) Otherwise, clothing is not relevant.

Our women's network (as with all our employee groups) are open to all employees. In practice, we have about 10% male membership, while they're over 70% of our workforce. Unfortunately, when it's a male dominated industry like mine (tech), we do need men on board, because while there are so many more of them, particularly in management roles, they have to be involved in changing the culture. But it's about far, far more than clothing.

I cant be of any help, but surely if it is an NHS link group they need to aware that under the EA there are health services and treatment that are based on the biological reality of sex. And that includes women having the right to be treated by other women.

The network isn't dealing with the reality of the work to be done, surely.

Are you able to start with asking them what is the problem that this network is trying to solve?

The problem is not to make cross dressers to feel more comfortable. It is nothing to do with cross dressers one way or another,

It is to address the dissemination and imbalances that women - i.e. adult human females - face in the workplace because of biology and unhelpful stereotypes.

If men who want to dress up like women (whatever that means) want to set up their own group then they can crack on.

Does the BAME group include white people in their definition?

Hi OP,

I think I was in that meeting. Basically one young woke woman making it all about ‘anyone who says they are a woman is a woman’. To be honest, I’m giving up. I just can’t deal with anymore grief from it.
Thanks for your support though.

Wow, I just starting reading this thread and thought about your thread DangerCat01. It sounds well dodgy notanurse and I have to echo what FFSFFSFFS says.

Wearing women's clothes? If you're a woman wearing clothes then they are women's clothes FFS.

Thanks Mrs Doyle! I’m pretty sure it must have been the same meeting! I’m so delighted to see this thread and have the support. I was so down in my last thread.

I think it was a really interesting question DangerCat and its opened up a good debate. The problem is, given the times we're in at the moment people can be quite snippy. To say the least!

I'm really sorry that your women's group has been violated this way not a nurse and DangerCat there's another thread on here at the moment about how good it would be to be able to meet and discuss women's issues solely and why that always becomes a problem.

Hi, I've been waiting / hoping for this thread to pop up. I was also at that meeting. I am staying in the network despite being GC, because I want to make sure, if I can, that it centres women no matter if the membership is open to "all women" or "all genders" or whatever it's described as. I think once the virtue signalling is over and done with, we can get on with identifying and tackling the issues that actually affect and hold back women in our organisation. That's my hope anyway.

So wait, three MNers in the same meeting? I'm really thrilled by this, I hope there are water cooler moments when you can sneak off and have GC conversations!

If you can hold on in the OP you could make a difference, just in subtle ways, redirecting things back to women.

The gender pay gap report (it's what it's called, if it was me I'd call it sex-based as gender means f all now) for your org would be an interesting place to start as this is measured by biology, not gender identity, or would a man who thinks he is a woman be paid like a a woman? Would a man who thinks he is a woman be expected to wear dresses and skirts every day?

I can't say it wouldn't be risky, given the history and position of Self ID, in or relating to the NHS, but I see a slight shift in the landscape around this and basically if you can hang on in there, act dumb, ask questions and try to guide the conversation you might be surprised as the impact you can have.

Of course you could ditch it and quietly say why to some you trust and just say you don't want to be a part of something that erodes women's rights or something less provoking if you feel safe to do so.

I wish you all the best, it's not a fun place to be.

Oh my god Iam! This is amazing I was the ranting woman with first name beginning with R.

In case others are interested the meeting was a teleconference due to covid and we are a national organisation so the people on the call were around the country and don’t necessarily work in the same office.

The weird thing is that I don’t think we have any trans people in the organisation, our women’s network was high jacked by a younger woke person who was banging the TWAW drum. I was in a bad mood that day and just wouldn’t let it go.

to Dangercat, for not letting it go, and to all of you who were in that meeting.

Too bad you don't have the support of all being in the same workplace. But with luck you'll find other sane people in each area to help you keep the network on track for actual women.

Hey DangerCat01, I was the one who spoke up to agree with your first point, before it all went a bit messy. Hope you feel able to stick with the group. You too notanurse.

OhHolyJesus I'm sure the gender pay gap will be on the agenda - ours is not good, despite being majority female employees. But my experience from that meeting is there is no point trying to engage with the 'sex vs gender / what is a woman?' aspect. I think there is too much fear of falling foul of the NHS Constitution / NHS values (which seem to boil down to 'be kind').

Good point! I will persevere.

Sorry for not checking back on this thread. How happy am I though that there are 3 of us from the meeting here!

Thank you to everyone who has replied. I am staying with this group for now. I can't influence if I am not in the meetings. Let's report back after the next meeting, colleagues 😊

I feel this is the beginning of an underground GC network! Well done to the three involved

If you don't 'meet' due to it being an online thing (which I realised was probably the case after my last post) then at least you can network here and on your work networks and you have each other in the meetings.

Exciting!

(If the gender pay gap is not a good starting point there will be others, and with no TW colleagues it will be just the woke bloke you have to contend with. Wish I was a fly on the wall or could secretly hack your group calls!)

Good plan!

Would referencing the Trans NHS Staff Network and the nightmarish Tara Hewitt be of any help? They are a vivid demonstration of how women's rights and "trans rights" can clash.

Sorry - not sure what happened there, posted too soon.

Here's one of the Trans NHS Staff Network's greatest hits - opposing womens' rights to same sex healthcare providers and and even claiming that women who assert this right are breaking the law

archive.is/bCQkz

I think there's a record somewhere of a really appalling speech by Hewitt, too.

If you can demonstrate the conflict exists it might help to keep the women's network for women.

That’s helpful, thanks. I didn’t know about this.

Here's a thread documenting some of the antics of Tara "BDSM for cancer patients" Hewitt, adviser to the NHS on trans issues.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385533-Prominant-campaigning-role-of-Tara-Hewitt-NHS-TELI-Social-work-universities-etc?pg=1