To think that all moral human beings are feminists

[Guyonhere1]

AIBU to think that every normal human being - male or female - is a feminist, since the majority of people are for gender equality.

PS - this is a genuine question and I’m not trying to cause an argument

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France pseudonym for Jacques Anatole Thibault (1844-1924)

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.

I'm sorry to say that majority of men who call themselves feminists I've encountered have been arseholes.

Should all moral people recognize and abhor misogyny? Yes.

Heh what bewildered weetabix said.

For me, feminism is not the same as gender equality. It's rights for women.

I mean equality would be no abortions. Men don't need them so equality is none.

Women killing two men a week = equality.

I could go on...

I mean equality would be no abortions. Men don't need them so equality is none.

Or access to abortions for any man who needed one

Yeah but we all know that's not the way around it would work.

Oh, I know. I know the men well enough now.

I don't know that men's lack of need for abortions or similar things are relevant really. Equality doesn't assume that everyones needs or circumstances are similar. It's equality of respect for the person, not sameness.

However, I would not say that I think feminism is particularly about desire for that kind of equality either. People may believe in equal dignity and respect for all persons, but not see it through the same lens, or talk about the same social structures, or look for the same kinds of solutions. People may have quite a different vision of what that all means.

Femism is a particular viewpoint about women's social and leagal position, why it is the way it is, how it might be bettered, a view on how women relate to men and larger society. It's based on a particular period in time and place, a particular understanding of freedom, of history, of what it means to be oppressed. It developed within a particular social, economic, political, and technological context and often takes that context for granted.

People can disagree with any of those assumptions or sets of foundational beliefs, or come from a place where that context is very different and so gives them a very different lens, without being immoral people.

Is morality objective or subjective though? I see people who call themselves feminists go up to bat for the right and freedom of women to engage in sex work, I see other feminists oppose it in the name of preventing the sexual exploitation of any woman. Who is morally right?

If you advocate for the rape torture and abuse of women you are a lot of things but a Feminist is not one of them.

Both groups could think the punters are vile rapists though, regardless of their view of the women's rights.

"If you advocate for the rape torture and abuse of women you are a lot of things but a Feminist is not one of them."

Interesting, and I think you're right. However what if that isn't what sex positive feminists are actually arguing for? I think they argue for what they see as a liberty or freedom of women, and not actually for the rape, torture and abuse of women. They could just as easily pen an equally snappy line designed to shut down debate as the one you submitted:

"If you advocate for the infringement of the rights and freedoms of women you are a lot of things but a Feminist is not one of them."

FWIW I actually agree with you in making sex work illegal, as in this instance I weigh the health and well being of individual women above and beyond their actual liberty, but it makes me uncomfortable to do so, but I don't fault women who may reach a conclusion that an individual woman's liberty trumps everything else.

Being a feminist is not a requirement to be a moral human being.
Feminism is a political movement not a philosophy or moral code.
You can be a moral human being without joining the feminist movement.

(Besides feminism isn’t about gender equality. It is about equality of the sexes and I agree with everything Goosefoot said so eloquently about it being based on a single, rather narrow perspective rooted in a single time and place and generation of women)

Considering feminism to be about sex differences , and feminism to be about ...er...equality of opportunities , being judged only on merit, avoidance of accidental exclusion , respect and being treated as human

There can be a huge disconnect between what people say and how they really behave

I don't believe that everyone does think that women are fundamentally cognitively as capable as men. It must be hard to actually think that when so much of the world around you is telling you the opposite. In some ways it's surprising anyone ever challenged that received wisdom

I do believe that many people think that they , and people like them , are superior in some way, more important and worthwhile. Again, when men's sport receives more airtime and funding its clear men's sport , and by inference, men , is considered by many to be more important and worthwhile

So many ‘proud feminists’ Nicola Sturgeon, Layla Moran etc actively trying to erode the rights of women and girls.

Zoe Williams - feminism is about being kind- kind for whom? No my DDs safety, dignity and privacy that’s for sure.

Many of them can fuck right off

So, OP, are you saying that every person who isn't a feminist (ie believes in the liberation of women, and genuine sex equality) is immoral?
I prefer the term 'unethical' ...
Well, sure, I agree it's deeply unethical to treat women as 'the second sex'. Most organised religions throughout history are on this basis unethical.

The problem is, not all feminists think and believe the same things. So to claim any sort of moral ground, wouldn’t you first need to establish exactly what feminists do believe?

Zoe Williams - feminism is about being kind

God, I hadn't seen that. What a load of rubbish. It reminds me of all the ways in which women are told to "be a nice girl", "be ladylike", etc.

There seem to be a lot of different ideas about what feminism is - so that’s a starting point to define what it is
Personally i don’t think i am a feminist - in whatever sense it’s meant. I do think women and men should be paid the same for the same job. I also believe abortion is morally wrong. So could I be considered a pro life feminist - such a thing does exist.
I take my morals from my religious belief. I find this more unchaining than political beliefs. Just my perspective

I think you're right, OP. It's really about understanding the power relationships between the sexes. Feminism is a movement for the liberation of women. In that sense it's no different from the black civil rights movement of the 1960s or the anti-slavery movement of the nineteenth century.

If you're opposed to the liberation of women, it's difficult to see how you can call yourself a moral person.

Although this idea of being a feminist has always sat weirdly with me. Why does it have to be about identity in that way? Would it be possible to support a feminist agenda from time to time or apply feminist analysis to various situations without being a feminist? Or rather, would it even matter if you were or weren't?

The idea that feminism is about equality is quite persistent isn't it?

It's made me wonder - is that one of the main planks of liberal feminism and therefore understandable that people think that?

There’s nothing wrong with being kind unless your concept of “kindness” is actually being submissive and allowing someone else to become a monster.

Pursuit of equality of the sexes must be right, because the opposite is so obviously wrong.

I don't think that is a correct position OP.
I consider myself to have good morals, I believe strongly in equality, l don't believe it is necessary to push women's rights above men's.
I am perfectly willing to accept this is because I have never felt oppressed as a woman, I have never been afraid to go out at night/alone. I have had the same opportunities in life as my brothers.
In the more general population, women have the same rights as men, both sexes are paid equally for doing the same job. Yes the gender pay gap exists but that is much to do with part time work and varying roles. Women can choose whether to get married/become mothers whether they want to work full time part time or not at all.
I honestly think there is no need for feminism in the developed world. I would therefore not consider myself a feminist this does not stop me from being a moral person.