Piers Morgan GMB asking SNP MP about fairness in sport re trans athletes...

[frazzled1]

now.....

Goosefoot tbf a lot of adherents to political parties can be like this too. I see regular blatant refusals to accept facts from supporters of both the Labour Party and SNP on social media. I don’t doubt the same problem exists within Conservative supporters too but they tend to post less, at least where I look (and given the name calling of Tory voters on SM, I can see why).

Aren't there sports where the inclusion of trans women competing against women wouldn't be controversial though?

Off the top of my head - not anything with speed, stamina or strength at its heart, but sports based on precision and accuracy, or that are mechanically assisted? And where competitors safety wouldn't be endangered by having Male-bodied opponents.

So - ice dance, synchronised swimming or diving, diving itself, some gymnastics, darts, snooker. Possibly some motor sports like rallying? And archery?

So rather than a blanket ban it would be up to each sporting federation to decide.

But in any case - surely its easiest to have three categories, male, female and open?

Any sport where transwomen are not at an advantage are the same sports where men do not have an advantage. In these cases there may already be mixed sex competitions.

Thanks Aesop. Reminded me of one I forgot - Curling...

Ooh, didn't someone on here once suggest in all seriousness that men in women's sports wasn't unfair because women would have an advantage if there were a 'ducking under the bar' event?

Women who have excelled at sport competing against men are very rare, but they have and do exist.

Maria Costello MBE who has managed a podium at the Isle of Man TT races.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Costello

The late, great Beryl Burton, possibly the greatest female cyclist ever. She once held the fastest 12 hour time trial record, faster even than the mens record of the time.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Burton

Sabine Schmitz is the very well known racing driver who has appeared on Top Gear. As well as being an instructor at the Nurburgring, she has won the 24 hours of Nurburgring and has competed in World Touring Car Championships.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Schmitz

There are sports which are mixed. Horse jumping, curling can be mixed or not, car racing.

Xanthangum
To take your archery example it is single sex because greater upper body strength means a stronger bow which means a faster arrow which means more accuracy. Men’s bows are generally far heavier than women’s.

Darts I imagine the same thing applies? Idk if the short distance negates this.

Snooker - a greater reach is an advantage

ice dance, synchronised swimming or diving all depend on speed, stamina or strength & in the case of synchro a greater lung capacity is a big advantage

Quite a few in the various equestrian disciplines - Charlotte Dujardin, Anky van Grunsven, Pippa Funnell, Ginny Leng, Lucinda Green, Mary King to name a few, but mainly in dressage and 3-day eventing, far fewer in showjumping, polo and racing for some reason.

Shooting events...that sounds fair to be mixed-sex?

Oh and then there’s this:

Zhang Shan was the only woman to win a medal in the skeeter shooting mixed-sex event from 1972 to 1992. Olympic gold - Barcelona 1992 - after that they made it a male only event. She couldn’t defend her title thanks to her ovaries. No more women’s event until Sydney 2000

This debate is interesting because in Asia (particularly Indian and China) the profile of women’s sport is increasing but fans (and by extension promoters) don’t accept trans women even when they win medals. So even if teams fill their women’s teams with pre-op men these guys will never get the sponsorship opportunities that women do.

Darts could be mixed as I understand it with no disadvantage to women. The reason there are women's leagues is because so few women play that they tend to be outclassed at the top by men. But if more women did play you could easily mix the games.

Shooting, maybe? Weight and bulk can play a role with this, so it might depend on what sort of shooting, really. But my guess is that even if it would be best to separate men and women at the highest levels, it might not make much difference at lower levels. When I used to shoot in the military women were often quite good at it.

Guns are heavy! They make shotguns for women with a shorter stock and barrel because of our shorter arms and narrower shoulders so it's not exactly the same.

I think men have a height advantage in darts.

For anyone arguing for males in women's sports I find this website useful

boysvswomen.com/#/

Boys aged 14-15 are able to easily break women's world records in sport.

re darts: Google Fallon Sherrock.

Shooting. No. Can’t compete again men.

Heavier gun resists recoil better. Giving an advantage.

Also shooting disciplines rely on the athletes ability to resist/ overcome the physical symptoms of stress. ( pounding heart, sweating , neither of which help you hold a gun steady) Even things like thickness of artery walls makes a difference or how well you can manage adrenaline.
And ... guess what testosterone seems to give an advantage.

@Polynerd She’s won masses of women’s tournaments but she only won 2 matches at the PDC World Championships.

The standard height from the bullseye to the floor is 5’8”. That’s above the average woman’s head whereas it is probably eye level for the average modern man. Taller people have longer arm length, the oche is 7’9.25”.

so do TRAs actually think that inner stereotype feelings of wanting to be "feminine" make transwomen shorter and take away their additional musculature? have any actually responded to things like the chart above?

do TRAs actually think that inner stereotype feelings of wanting to be "feminine" make transwomen shorter and take away their additional musculature?

They brush over the height issue (and the differences in hip structure and lung capacity etc) and argue that they feel so weak after being on oestrogen, that it can’t possibly be unfair to let them into the women’s category... quite ignoring the reality that a bit weaker for a man might still be much stronger than a woman.

Women are not just smaller weaker men

We are women. We are different

Diving men still have an advantage, despite small and light being being the ideal. Just look at the tariffs of the dives for the men's finalists v the women's. Men can safely have a much lower body fat % than women.
Same with gymnastics men have the muscle to weight ratio advantage, though women have the upper hand in flexibility.

But even where there are no physical advantages to being a man, there are access advantages in most sports, more clubs for males, access to better coaching, facilities and sponsorship.

*Women are not just smaller weaker men

We are women. We are different*

Exactly. And in some areas we are stronger than men. We've seen that women actually outperform men in super long distance swimming and running. I also find it interesting that in one of the only sports where women outclass men (gymnastics) the men's events are different and play to their strengths. E.g. the women do the beam, the men do the pommel horse.

If sports had been invented to centre women then we would have many more sports that play to the strengths of the female body (more flexible, nimble, higher stamina). But we didn't, we invented them for men.

Don’t suppose anyone has a link for this? I have searched but cannot find it anywhere.

And interesting that men don’t want to Id into women’s activities where it would hurt them. Some of the women’s gymnastics disciplines for example. Or where they have no advantage.