Lack of signs in pool changing room

[MinnieMountain]

Our local council removed the "boys 8 and under only" sign from the women's changing room at their main pool/gym 18 months ago.

I asked why at the time and was given some waffle about " it stops confused conversations about age". That just doesn't sit right with me. It definitely seems like there's been an increase in older boys coming in since the sign was removed.

Would it be worth pushing further with the council to get the signs back?

I think it would. Yes. I have to say I don't feel that comfortable changing in front of older boys peering around.
I was in the changing room the other day after a swim with my ten year old DD and she sighed happily and loudly saying "isn't it lovely just being us women in here and no big hairy men". There was another woman in there and I saw here smiling at this. I've convinced myself she's a FWR mumsnetter!

" it stops confused conversations about age"
the sign was perfectly clear, surely removing it leads to more confusion - not only older boys where they shouldn't be but maybe some younger boys being sent to the male changing rooms alone.

Yes, push back. Maybe they need to add guidance for parents with opposite sex children with special needs (and proper provision for them if it doesn't exist).

That's a good point ErrolTheDragon. I do need to work out how to phrase it in a way that the charity which runs it for the LA will listen.

I asked a young woman taking a boy into the women's if he was maybe a bit big, and she replied "My little brother's 9, where else am I supposed to take him?".

The other women who heard didn't see the problem, but they're not 9 year old girls.

I've taken to saying loudly to 6yo DS when we're in there "Get used to sorting yourself out, you'll soon be too old to come in here".

Yes definitely worth pushing back - their reason makes no sense at all so I would assume that it’s due to a different failure of theirs like having insufficient spaces for children with additional needs to be helped to change.
I would ask what they think any safeguarding implications might be if older boys are using the women’s changing room. (Alternatively you could interpret the lack of sign to mean only females are allowed & ask where you are supposed to help your wee boy change...)

Did they also remove the one from the mens' changing room about girls only up to age 8? It's odd if they only took it from the women's changing room. It's a fairly commonly accepted rule that once a child is 8, they should be in the correct gender changing room, so their argument for removing it seems pretty thin, especially if they left the sign for the men's changing room up.

DH says there's never been a sign in the men's but girls tend not to go in once they're 6 or so.

It could be down to failure to provide other changing areas. There's only 1 disabled changing room.

So you would rather a boy of 8 go into a changing room by himself where anything could happen to him? It needs to be raised to 10. My boys are 7&8 and I wouldn't send my eldest by himself into the male changing room. Family changing and single sex changing needs to be available at every leisure centre.

Family changing and single sex changing needs to be available at every leisure centre.

Absolutely. But if it isn't, then if it's a choice between the needs of girls and women (the presence of boys may effectively bar some) and a few boys, then surely you don't think the needs of the latter do outweigh the former?

So you would rather a boy of 8 go into a changing room by himself where anything could happen to him?

No, I'd rather there was somewhere appropriate and safe for him to change.

It needs to be raised to 10. And then people would say 'what about the 11 year olds?'.

If the men's changing rooms aren't safe for boys then someone needs to sort that out. Have staff supervising (I know that raises it's own issues) or something. Have more men take an active part in family life and take their sons to their swimming lessons. Have separate family changing rooms. Any of those would help. But you don't solve a problem by taking something away from the women and girls.

The safety of a 8 year old boy comes before the needs of adult women. If a child is to scared to change on their own then I'm sorry but he would be in the female changing rooms in a cubicle if people don't like it then tough.

8 year old boys shouldn't be in women's changing rooms, that's fairly standard everywhere.

8 year old girls should be able to change in a safe place. Putting older boys in there makes girls feel uncomfortable. It's a female room so the boys have to go.

If your 8 year old boy can't dress himself then he gives up swimming until he can. Don't impose him on girls. Very unreasonable.

I'm not talking about the needs of adult women. I'm talking about the needs of the girls in there.

Do people really believe that "anything can happen", as in sexual abuse presumably, in the men's changing room? It's never occurred to me to not send DS in at the appropriate age and my DF was a child protection social worker.

I think it’s a legitimate concern. 9 yo boys are vulnerable among men (not all men). Single parent to a son here and I do worry about this. Predators are looking for whoever they can victimise.

It’s not for women to solve but it is an issue.

Family changing should be offered as there should be no 8 year old boys in female changing rooms. It’s not about adult women, it’s about the privacy of young girls.

There definitely needs to be more family changing, I'd be very wary about sending a young boy into the men's alone - there are unfortunately sexual predators all over the place, and plenty of young boys have been raped or assaulted in changing rooms and toilets

As a PP said though, it's not an issue for women to solve by giving up our daughters' right to privacy.

In France, there's one big changing room with dozens of private cubicles. Mixed. Everyone gets their own cubicle. There are 2 - 4 bigger cubicles for disabled people or family units. Nobody ever sees anyone else naked. Every pool I've been to is like this. You then walk out, shove your stuff in a locker, job done. Everyone showers with their swimwear on. I've never so much as seen a bum cheek of anyone I'm not related to. The toilette are mixed almost everywhere (although I can see this raising problems in schools). But surely gyms, pools, changing rooms... these things could be easy to sort out?

I am a little nervous sending my son into the gents loos or changing rooms, yes, I am fearful of sexual assault for him, he is under 10. Of course it is a risk. As others say, though, not resolved by letting them go into the ladies.

Family changing with cubicles, here, makes life quite easy, we change in a cubicle together.

In France, there's one big changing room with dozens of private cubicles. Mixed. Everyone gets their own cubicle. There are 2 - 4 bigger cubicles for disabled people or family units. Nobody ever sees anyone else naked.

This sort of arrangement does exist in the U.K. too, has for decades - my local pool has a good arrangement - the key is there are three aisles of cubicles each big enough for a parent and child, (Male, female, mixed ) and some group rooms.

What sometime happens is that there are these signs, but the age doesn't work for every situation (maybe a child with developmental issues,) or more often there are kids that look older or younger than they are, and people challenge them coming in. So a big boy who looks older than 8 but may actually be 7. And then there is a big kerfuffle or argument with the staff or which the staff has to mediate. I gather this is not an uncommon occurrence in some places.

They may have thought, if we let people use their common sense, this will be fine, they can do what is right for the situation. Which IMO will fail more than the sign.

FWIW I think that while family change rooms have a lot of advantages, in many cases kids are also a lot less independent than they were a generation ago and it isn't always positive. Many nine year olds are capable of going to the pool change room without a mum or sister.

my local sports center has single sex changing tooms for the gym but mixed for the pools.

l am uncomfortable with a mixed-use toilet/changing room, Sure you go in cubicles but they don't go to the floor and have no roof.

the toilets don't have their own wash facilities and are awash with urine

there is a sign saying keep your clothes on in the public places but not every man agrees with this rule.

Women and girls should not be expected to suffer in silence because adequate provision has not been provided for boys over 8 who may need help changing. The idea that they should be forced to do so because they matter less than a particular person's son is incredibly selfish.

Is the changing room open plan communal or cubicles?

If its open plan I would probably not be happy.
Cubicles then it's not really an issue. Many public pools only have mixed changing villages. It seems to be the private pools who are hanging on to male / female.

Circa 70 years ago my Mum stopped swimming with her Dad at the local pool. She felt too old for the mens. He didn't feel comfortable with his DD being out his earshot.
When changing villages became mixed probably in the 90s she was a bit but realising that it would have got her round the issue of male / female changing and enabled her to keep enjoying that family time she came round to the idea.

This interests me. My local pool has a very large communal changing room with loads of individual cubicles and a few larger size cubicles. The showers are also mixed. They have also got 2 small single sexed changing rooms with showers. I have 2 sons who I take swimming, one of whom is nearly 9 and has autism and anxiety and needs me there because he cannot be on his own. Because it is a mixed changing room with cubicles(they go floor to ceiling and lock) I can stay with him and there's still privacy. Everyone showers in their swimming things together.

Its a really good set up because there is provision for people who don't want mixed changing rooms at all and privacy for changing for those who do. The toilets are single sex.

For a while the pool closed and swimming lessons were moved to another pool. The only provisions were 2 single sex changing rooms. We ended up stopping swimming until the local pool reopened because I felt uncomfortable taking my 8 year old into the ladies' changing room and he could not go on his own because his anxiety was too severe.

It's interesting because I am strongly pro single sex toilets and bathrooms but in practice as a parent of a child with SEN I find a mixed environment much more practical. When out and about he uses the disabled toilets so I can go with him.

Well, before I had a chance to say anything, the signs went back up. So I can't have been the only person thinking it's not right.

It's cubicles- some with curtains, some with doors- and a central area which would be needed regardless if it got very busy.