SNP - Out For Indy - Mass resignations

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

WTF is going on? Three have left today, two I have heard of. Emma Cuthbertson former women's office and TW, and Jordan somebody who is the one who leaked private messages between MSPs discussing GRA stuff.

I'm glad they're gone, as they are horrible individuals, but I'm a bit confused by what they think they are going to achieve by this?

Mass resignation of three people?

I think the idea of independence seems to “offend” some older people. No idea why

Bore off with the offensive "older people don't understand it" crap. We saw enough of the unbelievably offensive "coffin dodgers stopped indepence" rubbish after the referendum. A nephew of my husband's posted that on social media. Utterly vile given one of the "coffin dodgers" was his grandmother who had just helped him buy his first flat.

I object to separatism because it is a blind, narrow- minded , blinkered ideology based on a curious mixture of an inferiority and superiority complex. It has no economic sense behind it.

I despise nationalism and ageism.

you do seem to have some sort of grudge against the SNP - I think the idea of independence seems to “offend” some older people

I think quite a lot of people are offended by nationalism.

I've always been intrigued by the (usually British) view of 'nationalism' as a dirty word. I wonder if that general distaste comes from Britain never really experiencing subjugation? It's fascinating because it feels very unusual to me. I grew up learning about 'freedom fighters' in school and gaining independence. The concept of self-determination is so normal to me and part of my conceptualisation of democracy that I find it difficult to understand frameworks without it.

WRT the SNP, their members all work under a gagging clause which they must agree to when joining the party. The specific wording is "[members shall] accept that no member shall within or outwith the parliament publicly criticise a group decision, policy or another member of the group".

Nationalism became somewhat less rose-tinted when, after a break of 5 decades, genocide returned to Europe in the former Yugoslavia.

How old do you have to be to be classed as one of these snp hating oldies that zsazsa talks about?

I’m in my 40s and agree with babdoc.

Thank you @babdoc for speaking sense.

WRT the SNP, their members all work under a gagging clause which they must agree to when joining the party. The specific wording is "[members shall] accept that no member shall within or outwith the parliament publicly criticise a group decision, policy or another member of the group".

Which is interesting given the OFI lot have done nothing but.

That gagging clause in my mind is undemocratic and one of the reasons I am anti-SNP. We elect MPs, constituency MSPs and councillors to represent us and our concerns not just those of the party. So for example: GRA. Once the government has proposed something like this, regardless of input, public opinion, common sense, science, the gagging clause requires all MPs, MSPs, and councillors to support it.

It amounts to a dictatorship

A nationalistic dictatorship.

That gagging clause in my mind is undemocratic and one of the reasons I am anti-SNP.

I think the main reason they get away with it is that most people aren't aware. I'm also not aware of any other remotely mainstream party with similar rules.

Nationalism became somewhat less rose-tinted when, after a break of 5 decades, genocide returned to Europe in the former Yugoslavia.

Should similar arguments be made about doing away with democracy given how many democratic countries have terrible governance, corruption, inequality and violence?

I really can’t understand some of the abject hatred for the snp. Hate their policies, I can understand. Disagree with their raison d’etre, yes. But some comments here sound so personal and, frankly, illogical.

I’m a middle aged, left leaning, floating voter. I vote for the party, and often the particular candidate, who I best feel reflects my opinions. For me, as a Scot, they represent that. The GRA debacle has covered none of the other parties in glory either. Indeed, it took a couple of snp women putting their heads above the parapet for labour women to do the same.
The whole of the uk are suffering under the austerity imposed by the Westminster government. But the simple fact remains that Scotland has rarely got the the government it voted for. Many of us left leaning Scots have grown tired of this, and of labours arrogance in assuming we would always support them. Self determination therefore seems logical.

But the power that the snp have achieved has attracted some seriously unsavoury characters. Thankfully the media/press are starting to show them up for what they are as the snp management have appeared utterly toothless in sorting this out.

As for nationalism, if you pay attention, for the most part it’s a very civic sort of nationalism. Yes there are a few “blood and soil” nut jobs still kicking about, but for the majority of Scots it’s about self determination and proper management. I genuinely believe that if Scottish labour shifted their thinking on independence the snp would be in trouble.

Can I also point out that pretty much all those folk within the snp that are bringing the party into disrepute are male. Yet again, the women are being left to clean up the mess.
Plus ca change.

Should similar arguments be made about doing away with democracy given how many democratic countries have terrible governance, corruption, inequality and violence?

An odd response. My post was a brief explanation of why nationalism had become a less attractive prospect when, rather than being a noble struggle in a land far away, it had happened just down the road, in modern day Europe, and clearly had a very ugly side. Of course people are going to think differently when they see that happening.

I can understand the arguments against the SNP and their organisational structure, practice and policies. However, you don't have to be an unwavering supporter or in love with the SNP to support independence for Scotland. It seems like there's a regular conflation of the two distinct concepts?

An odd response. My post was a brief explanation of why nationalism had become a less attractive prospect when, rather than being a noble struggle in a land far away, it had happened just down the road, in modern day Europe, and clearly had a very ugly side. Of course people are going to think differently when they see that happening.

Fair enough. That seems like a rational explanation, although I have never heard it being put forward as an argument.
It tends to be more along the lines of SNP is awful therefore Scottish independence is awful and nothing good can ever come from self-determination (even though most of the world operates on that basis ).

I can understand people might feel inclined to focus on extreme examples in the recent past, but there's a big difference in expressing concern about unsavoury elements of a process versus an outright rejection of a concept.

Thanks for your response. I wasn't actually commenting on the SNP at all, I was just engaging with your comment about why people in general have moved from a relatively uncritical "freedom fighters fighting for self-determination" to wondering whether nationalism might be problematic.

but for the majority of Scots it’s about self determination and proper management

I am not a "Scot". I live in Scotland. The self- determination guff makes no sense to me as one would have to accept the population of Scotland were somehow being oppressed; which I don't.Even before Holyrood Scotland had its own legal and education system.

After Holyrood "proper management" of just about everything which happens in Scotland is under the control of Holyrood. "Proper management" would be welcome.

It tends to be more along the lines of SNP is awful therefore Scottish independence is awful and nothing good can ever come from self-determination (even though most of the world operates on that basis

The SNP is awful. My objection to separatism is because it is a stupid, unnecessary, narrow- minded notion borne out of delusions of being oppressed. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I can't find this 'gagging clause'. Just having a look at the SNP Code of conduct that one has to agree to to become a member. Not sure if a link to a pdf will work?

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@DidoLamenting - I think you’ve illustrated exactly what I mean. It seems to be a group of particularly older people who seem offended by the idea of independence. They are unwilling to have any sort of rational debate, they simply think the whole idea is offensive. Interestingly enough, they often don’t have the same opposition to other types of “nationalism” that they agree with.

The fact that you have all those silly offensive things to say about the SNP and Scottish Independence kind of proves my point.

@DidoLamenting - people are entitled to self determination and to make decisions for themselves whether or not you want to consider them to be oppressed or not. It’s sad that you can’t have a rational conversation about the issue but there you are, proving my point again.

zsazsajuju people are also entitled to say ‘NO’ to self-determinations; as they did in a ‘once in a generation referendum’ only a few years ago.