Predictably, they're coming for the dictionary

[Qcng]

The petition is 8 months old, so sorry of there's already a thread about this but a friend sent me this link

Change Oxford Dictionary definition of Woman via change.org which has gained 35,000+.

I don't agree to signing a petition that is pushing for "transwomen" to be included under the definition of woman.

Also I don't think the petition is actually correct?
The reason why I'm thinking the examples given aren't true, is because I have a hard copy of the Oxford University Press Dictionary at home which doesn't give any of the examples except "woman of the streets" meaning "prostitute" which is indeed there.
Under the definition of man yes there are more examples like "mankind" "be the man" "Manning a machine", "man" as an exclamation like "Oh man" etc because I suppose "man" is used more frequently with different meanings, but that's hardly the dictionary's fault. Annoyingly I can't check online (the focus of the petition) because I've never bothered to pay the registration fee of £90 to access the OED online. I can't believe it would be so different from the hard copy?

I haven't said anything to my friend yet. I just think that years ago I predicted the TRA woke crowd would come for the dictionary. Now it's happening and it's upset me!

Am I overreacting? Can anyone verify the examples in the petition?

This kind of thing isn't completely new. I posted this some time ago:

Something like that has already happened (facilitated by the BBC):

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000c4v8

The OED did as they were bid even though they said that the evidence to change the definition of "drag" was not really sufficient to justify such a change.

Annoyingly I can't check online (the focus of the petition) because I've never bothered to pay the registration fee of £90 to access the OED online.

If you have a UK library card, access is free:

www.oed.com/loginpage

I get access if I precede my library card number with my county. Once in, I find this:

An adult female human being.

and also this:

women-men n. men who are effeminate, homosexual, transvestite, or transsexual; men with female qualities or attributes.

Oh bloody hell so the OED actually changed the definition of "drag" to appease a tiny minority of the woke?

I'm really worried.

One day, I really hope to find out about what sorts of pressures there have been on dictionary writers regarding the word "woman". I am sure that's a story in its own right.

"Adult Female Human"

That will suffice for me.

Nauticant no waay how have I lived virtually my whole life with a library card and not known that? I love Mumsnet (and u, thank u).

Ok I've checked under woman just now. It's extensive, hundreds of examples. Very varying in how women are portrayed. It'll take an extremely long time to find the specific examples in the petition. The version I and most people have is reduced.

I've no idea what this petition is on about then?

Actually, my recollection was slightly off. The ultra-fem female perfomer wanted the term "drag queen" to include women. The OED said it would make a minor change even though the evidence wasn't up to scratch. It seemed that this was because it wanted to look inclusive.

This is now the definition of "drag queen" in the OED:

Originally: a male entertainer who performs dressed as a woman; a female impersonator. Now usually: a performer (most typically a man) who adopts a flamboyant, exaggerated, or parodic feminine persona, with glamorous or outrageous costumes and make-up.

A very minor change but as you say, worrying.

So (for fun) I checked out "drag" and there don't seem to be any updates since 1968 under "G" use of "drag" in that context. Are the BBC making stuff up too??

Ah ok so all they did was add brackets somewhere

Well, if activists get their way it could end up with
Woman:
(Most typically) an adult human female
Which would be awful.

The end game of course for campaigning will be: Woman: anyone who identifies as a woman.

Which is batshit. Because it's an open admission that everyone knows damn well that a woman is an adult human female otherwise how would anyone know what it was they were identifying as? You can't 'identify' as anything unless you know what it is.

The truth of it really is: woman - something a man can be and you can't stop them so ner.

Whatever.

They can politically capture every book in the UK. It honestly won't matter, when they point and say 'you have to believe this, it's in the dictionary' my answer will be 'because you politically captured it, it's meaningless, and I believe this.'.

As India Willoughby said despairingly on BB, people can be made to say it and pay lip service to it. You can't make them believe it. Compelling people with batshittery pisses them off.

This was an attempt at subtlety, I think. By waving the feminist banner and filleting the definition for the most egregious examples of sexism, there was an attempt to rope in loads of easy signatures. The bit about including transwomen (and lesbians? Who doubted lesbians were women until comparatively recently?!) was something they hoped people would be too indignant to notice.

The only function of an English dictionary is to record and describe use. If it is noted that a term can be offensive, this falls under the above category.

Is this related to that petition to remove words like "bitch" from the definition of woman? Because despite that being a move I am completely in favour of, the thought of what might follow if the definition of woman starts to get tampered with does worry me.

The positive side is that I now understand the phrase: "This is why we can't have nice things".

Ah sorry have just realised you included a link to the petition. Yes that's the one.

The attempted change of the drag queen definition was an episode of The Untold - worth checking the podcast if you have a spare 20 mins. I generally love the untold, so many glimpses into so many completely different lives.

I think it's all crazy, including the "bitch" bit which makes sense in the way it has been included.

The point being that a dictionary of that type is simply meant to reflect the way people use language, not the way they should, or someone wants them to. And people do use all kinds of language in non-pc, offensive, and even scientifically inaccurate, ways. If women were doing drag, or started to, it would be right for the dictionary to change their definition to reflect that.

Is this related to that petition to remove words like "bitch" from the definition of woman? Yeah it's that petition, it's been doing the rounds and has gained a lot of support.

My problem with the petition is that words like "bitch" aren't actually listed under the definition of woman in any version of the OED.

If you specifically look up "bitch" in the OED you'll see hundreds of examples referring to it's use as "female dog" or mechsnical component used in industry, then it's use as a derogatory term (which historically used to apply to males and females).
If you look up "woman" you don't find "bitch" or "slag" etc but this is implied by the petition.

I think it's yet another backhanded attempt to convince people the dictionary definition of woman is wrong and should include males.

This is my main concern. I knew this was coming.

refusetobeasheep thanks I'll check it out

,*NearlyGranny" yes that's how I feel

Yeah, I've seen the petition about removing derogatory words from the OED. It's silly. No way will the OED take out rude words- and nor should they. To be fair, if anyone uses the word "woman" to refer to a group including males, the OED have got to put that use in, too.

They can politically capture every book in the UK. It honestly won't matter, when they point and say 'you have to believe this, it's in the dictionary' my answer will be 'because you politically captured it, it's meaningless, and I believe this.

I'm glad you and others are confident, I'm not so much

Bad laws are harder to revoke than they are to create and bad dictionary definitions are hard to change. Many laws depend on accurate definitions.