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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How are we the same?

88 replies

Aesopfable · 02/03/2020 08:47

What have transwomen got in common with women?

I can’t think of anything that we don’t have in common with other men. It seems a simple question. Can our monitors and visiting TRAs provide any answers?

OP posts:
ReinstateLangCleg · 02/03/2020 14:07

There is nothing that reliably groups together males-who-identify-as-women and women.

If the word 'woman' could possibly have been coherently redefined to include some men and exclude some women depending upon identity, the transactivists would have done it already.

But they can't. Because males are not females, and can never be.

(This is, of course, somewhat demonstrated by the fact that only those born male could even undergo an operation to invert their penile tissue into something "like a vagina." I would even go so far as to say it's deeply patriarchal to envision a vagina not as an incredible and intricate organ in its own right, but as something that can be medically constructed and described in the language of penetration.)

Hamster00 · 02/03/2020 14:16

Ok, I'll bite - as comments have be made that no *trans person has replied.

As one of those "old school" transsexuals who wants to get on with their life in peace. The answer is simple...

Nothing. The argument surrounding male violence applies equally to women, men, transwomen and transmen so it's a moot point.

As for the long answer, Barracker said it more eloquently than I could have have done, and I absolutely agree with her wholeheartedly.

Fieldofgreycorn · 02/03/2020 14:30

Well good for you. You can have your ‘approved by mumsnet feminists’ badge.

Hamster00 · 02/03/2020 14:34

Can I? Wonderful. Anything that will show I'm not in favour of women's rights being trampled on by TRAs/MRAs and will happily support women would be awesome!

Tell me it's not pink though - I really hate pink...

Fieldofgreycorn · 02/03/2020 14:35

I don't have this weird obsession with penetration/not-penetration at all and I can't empathise with it.

Neither do I but the question was what do trans women have in common with women that they don’t have in common with men, not whether or not there’s more to sex than penetration.

Fieldofgreycorn · 02/03/2020 14:36

It’s blank for you to colour in. Finding it validating here are you?

Fieldofgreycorn · 02/03/2020 14:36

Sorry that was unnecessarily rude.

Hamster00 · 02/03/2020 14:38

Not at all. I've been a member of the board for a while, and have (hopefully) contributed positively in that time.

However, I will happily "bow out" of this conversation. I wouldn't want to "intrude"...

Fieldofgreycorn · 02/03/2020 14:44

As I said, sorry for being rude.

Doyoumind · 02/03/2020 14:46

I know the answer to this one!

We both say we are women Hmm

As PPs have said, there isn't a real answer.

Barracker · 02/03/2020 14:59

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but when I consider my vagina, it's relevance to my life is much greater in terms of what comes out of it; people I created, the lining of my uterus, cervical mucus secreted to keep it healthy and functional. Than what goes into it; someone else's penis.
I don't view my body in terms of what other people (men) can do to it.

As for my clitoris, it's 10cm long. It wraps around my vagina internally towards my thighs. It has the shape of a lotus flower. It has more than 8000 nerve endings in the tiny tip alone, the glans. It keeps growing as I age.

I can see how those who are extremely ignorant of female anatomy and function might think vagina=penetrable hole, clitoris = pea sized nubbin that cannot penetrate. It's embarrassingly ignorant but there you go. However, females don't often define themselves in terms of dick functionality and how our bodies relate to that, but rather our own organ's functionality.

As for cosmetic appearance, if you ignore all the actual functions of female organs to contrive to believe that external cosmetic similarity makes for common purpose, you might as well argue that sheep without legs are clouds, and flies without wings are raisins.

And so far as hormonal levels go, a point I've been wanting to make for ages to all the middle aged men arguing for their "HRT" and claiming their oestrogen levels make them women.
What the everloving feck do you imagine the oestrogen levels of post menopausal women are? That's right, dipsticks, we spend decades and decades of our lives with low or undetectable levels of oestrogen and we're as female without it as we are with it! Why on earth would a man imagine he needs oestrogen at 65 at the levels of a 20 year old woman? The level of oestrogen naturally occurring in a 65 year old woman is often less than a man's.

It's quite the shock to discover what men really think female bodies are for, what they look like, and what they do.

Doobigetta · 02/03/2020 15:25

I know! Neither women nor transwomen identify as male.

Fieldofgreycorn · 02/03/2020 15:25

I can see how those who are extremely ignorant of female anatomy and function might think vagina=penetrable hole, clitoris = pea sized nubbin that cannot penetrate.

I’m well aware of our anatomy thank you and the differences, as I made clear.

Plenty of post menopausal women find their lives better and more fulfilling with HRT.

Barracker · 02/03/2020 15:40

You wrote an entire post that characterised female anatomy in terms of whether it could penetrate, or be penetrated, and what the external portion looks like aesthetically.
Forgive me if I concluded that you hadn't quite grasped the irrelevance of this penetration/cosmetic appearance concept to female anatomy and function.

As for HRT, it's irrelevant to my measure of femaleness, and I speak as someone who went through premature menopause, and for whom it is advised and prescribed to prevent adverse health consequences. My female body failed to continue to produce my own hormones earlier than is physiologically natural. I replace my hormones to the level that I ought to be experiencing for a female of my age, to prevent heart disease and osteoporosis which are known consequences of early menopause.

I'd be as female with or without it. Taking oestrogen to replace my oestrogen deficiency improves my health, much as replacing thyroxine improves my thyroxine deficiency.

Fieldofgreycorn · 02/03/2020 15:55

Yes we’re well aware of the differences between women and TW. There are many of them.

The question was: what do trans women have in common with women that they don’t have in common with other [sic] men.

Barracker · 02/03/2020 16:04

Yes, and your answer was 'an extra hole for men to put a dick in'.

Nice.

FemiLANGul · 02/03/2020 16:17

Biologically 100% shared Human DNA

What about the clownfish 🤔

NearlyGranny · 02/03/2020 16:20

I count one transman as a friend (only met him after transition so I never knew him as a woman) and he's a lovely person. I count one transwomen as a professional acquaintance and have the utmost respect for her skills. My sample is minuscule!

I would say the main thing we all have in common, along with men who are born men and happy with it, is varying degrees of vulnerability to endemic male violence.

I have never routinely gone in fear of anything else in life except shark attack in tropical waters. The feeling is pretty much the same. You know you're statistically not likely to be a victim, but you know they're out there and you expend mental energy exercising vigilance and managing your fear when in risky territory.

Catting · 02/03/2020 16:22

Any perceived similarities will be ones that are acted out,worn or surgically created.

Fieldofgreycorn · 02/03/2020 16:23

They don’t necessarily have ‘men put dick in’. But topographically it is something they have in common with women and not men. You’re reducing it to holes and dicks now.

What a stupid conversation. An hour of my life I won’t get back.

FemiLANGul · 02/03/2020 16:26

An actual vagina bears little resemblance to a surgically created hole.

You may as well compare it to a bellybutton

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 02/03/2020 16:40

Do you really have no idea that yours was the incredibly stupid comment, Fieldofgreycorn? Really? That’s a quite staggering lack of self-awareness.

I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised by your ability to delude yourself, given the beliefs you hold.

But hold off on attributing the stupidity to other people, when you are the culprit here.

Miriel · 02/03/2020 16:41

It's also irrelevant, because as I said upthread, most transwomen still have penises.

Unless you're defining 'transwoman' as 'person with a surgically created neovagina'. Sensible as that might be, the TRAs would consider it very transphobic.

As most transwomen have penises, having a 'vagina'/hole/however you want to describe it isn't something that they as a class share with women as a class.

FrogsFrogs · 02/03/2020 16:51

The comments that

Women tend to prefer dresses and makeup and
The company of other women

Are both rather sexist from my perspective

I suppose it does lead me to one similarity. I wear a dress and makeup for work, used to wear heels. It did feel like putting on a costume of sorts, performing femininity.

But then anyone can perform femininity, men women transpeople anyone.

So that's not what it is.

Michelleoftheresistance · 02/03/2020 16:58

You have to love it when a transwoman gives their POV and derisively gets told off by a non trans person for having Wrong Views and being the Wrong Kind of Trans, with downright personal abuse. Hamster was bloody gracious about it but that was appallingly rude. Very clear there are Right Views and Wrong Views and not people allowed to think different things for those who represent the political extremist POV.

Two things to add here:

  1. Screenshots.
  2. Discussions about bits, lady or otherwise, usually get deleted. It's a good way to kill an inconvenient thread.

Bunbury.