This is exactly what is happening, right?

[Letmegetthisrightasawoman]

Imagine a white person who "feels black". They start treating their hair and wearing blackface. They might even have plastic surgery to change their appearance. Next, they start listing their ethnicity as "black". They insist that they are black and have exactly the same experience as "natal" black people. Anyone who suggests that they might have different experiences because they grew up a white person (with all the inherent privileges) is accused of bigotry and denying their lived experience. They demand to be allowed to join organisations for BAME people. They insist they be allowed to apply for positions reserved for BAME people, and are successful at the expense of "natal" BAME people.

There would be outrage, wouldn't there? In fact, it would be considered racist, and rightly so.

Now substitute "man" for "white" and "woman" for "black". Why is that not considered sexist???

Disclaimer: this is my first time posting this kind of thing and I apologise if I have broken any talk guidelines. I apologise sincerely if I have caused offense to any BAME people. For full disclosure: I am a white woman.

Gaaah, just realised a glaring omission: it is not my intention to equate the struggles of black people for equal right with that of women!

There is a couple who have done this. They take tablets to darken their skin. I only know about it because they were invited on to a morning tv programme for some reason. I think the general consensus was that it was odd, the people still do deserve respect, but i certainly wouldn't have referred to them as black.

Google ‘Rachel Dolezal’. There was outrage when she was rumbled.

Yup, quite aware of her. I'd love to get a convincing explanation from someone as to why the trans movement's insistence on access to women-only spaces (etc) is any different from the scenario I painted above...

I agree.

I'm really interested to know what it was that has lead you to post today though? What is it you have seen or read or heard that has made you feel strongly enough to post about it now?

(I only ask as the point you make is a well known one here)

I have issues I’m not fully able to articulate about drawing a parallel between race and sex. Mainly because there is absolutely no genetic difference between people born black and those not but there is a world of difference between those with XX chromosomes and those with XY

I posted today because I have been discussing these issues with DH for a while now. I have been lurking on these boards and been thinking about whether I should become more vocal/ open about them. I don't have the guts to post it elsewhere on MN. I wasn't aware of this parallel having been drawn before on here?

I know what you mean re unease, hence my disclaimer. I know very little about genetics, but what explains differences in skin colour then?

The direct reason was reading the women's place UK website last night and the Twitter feed where a gay man expresses doubts about the inclusion of the T, which I found via a MN thread.

So at what point does someone enter the realm of sexism for you in this analogy?

I personally don't have any issue with anyone trying to look like a woman (although I am aware that black face and trying to look like a black person is widely considered racist, so my analogy falters there). For me, every step after this (from "Next" onwards) is sexism.

Describe the next step.

Describe the next step.

Literally after the word 'next' in the OP.

Yes, it is all very very sexist and homophobic.

Google transgirls.

It's some time ago now that Rachel was on a morning programme. I remember watching it, and then very soon after (not sure if same day, day later, week later but definitely soon) I saw a transwoman on. I remember Rachel being absolutely slated and asked why a whole lot and then to see the TW feted and being called lovely things.
To this day i dont get why one is a terrible awful thing to do but the other is stunning and brave.
They are both equally ridiculous. No one should appropriate anothers experience. Wether sex or colour or religion or disability.

I agree, OP. If anything, you're not going far enough.

Next, said people start declaring that actual black people are 'cisblack' and are privileged because they were born black, they didn't have to put in any effort to become so. They claim that it's exclusionary to have any event talking about the lives or experiences of black people where only 'cisblack' people are discussed. They think that their experiences should be centred instead. If you disagree, they'll try to prevent you from speaking.

When Labour activists proposed the creation of black sections, some people attempted to ask what criteria would be used for eligibility. They pointed out that in Apartheid South Africa the test was the opinion of a police officer.

The angry response was to call that racist and assert that black people knew who they were.

I have issues I’m not fully able to articulate about drawing a parallel between race and sex. Mainly because there is absolutely no genetic difference between people born black and those not but there is a world of difference between those with XX chromosomes and those with XY

This x1000. It is a lot more valid to feel British (for example) wherever you were born than to feel like a woman when you are not.

The problem, in both cases, is deception or disadvantage to the target group. Liking rap is fine, taking a BME network place is not.

It's all part of a problem around how we think of identity.

Sex of course has very little to do with identity. Ethnicity does a little bit, and race can actually be about identity to a significant extent in some cases.

The things we associate with masculinity or femininity, or gender, are more like that actually, they are about a sense of acquired identity.

I think it's probably significant that at this moment people are inclined to make racial and gender identity essentialised, when they are the least easily defined and most constructed.

The angry response was to call that racist and assert that black people knew who they were.

Did you read that article about the town in the US where many people considered themselves black, even though they weren't, because historically everyone that lived there was considered and treated as black by the people in the surrounding area?

It was interesting because it had nothing to do with anyone trying to retain some sort of advantage or be cool or whatever, and it seemed very natural and organic - they "knew" they were black because their parents were black and they'd always been seen as black. Some people had more recently stopped seeing themselves as black, it seems as they were more integrated with the larger culture of the country and in some cases say that it wasn't really considered acceptable or objective.

Tom Jones broke in America because black music stations assumed he must be black, and white stations were assured he was white, so he got double the airplay.

It's because it's oppressing women. No one has ever truly cared about that other than women. If it was oppressing men it would be a different story.