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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tory campaign for trans rights launched

50 replies

newacc · 27/02/2020 16:11

after Labour's last week...

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/02/27/tory-trans-campaign-orthodox-conservative-transphobic-gender-recognition-act-boris-johnson/

OP posts:
stumbledin · 28/02/2020 00:12

Quote from twitter thread:

We will be promoting five principles (to follow in thread), that we believe support our trans community, and encourage people to get involved and contribute ideas for us to take forward.

  1. Gender exists on a spectrum, is not binary, and is not necessarily related to the sex or the gender you were assigned at birth.
  2. Gender is not determined by genitals, and we should listen to and respect individuals when talking about gender and using pronouns.
Trans men are men. Trans women are women. Non-binary people are non-binary.
  1. Self-ID is a vital and necessary step forward to support the trans community.
  2. Where possible, we should be led by trans voices.
  3. We must increase the focus and funding for trans and gender support services - with a particular focus on reducing waiting times for these support services.

I’m assuming this was started by this man. inews.co.uk/opinion/why-i-a-cisgender-tory-male-state-my-pronouns-1381269

Be worth keeping an eye on as it is the Tories who will be progressing the GRA consultation.

StrangeLookingParasite · 28/02/2020 00:22

No-one is denying trans people exist, you fucksticks. Stop making things up.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/02/2020 00:32

Non-binary people are non-binary.

Well, there's no arguing with that incisive piece of logic.Grin

wellbehavedwomen · 28/02/2020 02:02

Student politician at the LSE.

I can see he has his finger on the pulse of human suffering.

I am a cisgender, straight, white, male, middle-class Tory. If even I can muster enough self-awareness to recognise the uniqueness of others’ experiences and make small changes to the way I behave as a result, such as adding "he/him" to my social media bios, then you definitely can too. There is no basis for defying this that is both rational and compassionate.

Oh, sweetie. There are these people called w o m e n. Strange, but true. And by conceding to this new faith, we also concede our legal existence as an identifiable group. Which is kind of a problem, because your group - male people - prey on our group - female people - and always have done. And despite it being an article of faith of the woke religion that as soon as a male utters the words, "I am a woman!" that male instantly becomes one, and their offending rate falls to female levels, that's just provably untrue.

Transwomen offend at male rates. There are now more transwomen in prisons for sex offences than women, according to Rhona Hotchkiss, who should know. Ministry of Justice stats are that 1 in 50 male prisoners now identify as women. Given 95% of prisoners are male, and over 98% of sex offenders, that's a bit of an issue when you start to argue that transwomen are literally women (because they say so) and therefore male criminality isn't relevant, and all the single sex provision which women have fought for (and all the charities in the developing world argue should be introduced, and is essential) should be open to any male identifying as a female. Which, of course, would then mean, "any male who walks in, because the social ban would end".

Soooo. Let's summarise: you think any man who says, "I'm a woman" should be able, as a result, to access any woman's space, no matter what the women may want and no matter how vulnerable we are in that space. And women should be erased as a sex class, when our sex is why we are oppressed, so men can opt in to our definition and, thereby, absolutely all our provision. Without our consent, and when that puts us at risk. And that's your idea of equality. To increase rape rates, at a point in history where fewer than 2% of reported rapes - reported - result in a conviction, because to your mind, men who think they're women must therefore be suffering agonies, and it's women's job to console them for this degradation.

How quaint.

See, I'm just wondering: what's the value of a woman? How many rapes are too many, as far as you're concerned? At what point do women have the right to say no? To men taking our sports? Our loos? Our communal changing spaces? Our dorms, our wards, our refuges, our rape crisis groups, our smear tests... what about our right to say no to sex? Where does this end, exactly? What, in your mind, is the acceptable point at which women can say 'no' to male demands? Does one exist at all? I'm not joking. I'm serious. What's the stop?

Hyperbole, you'll say. Hysterical, you'll say. Terf, you'll say.

Here's the thing: name me a time in history where a class have been erased in law, as a group deserving of legal protection in any way, that ended well. Name me a point in history where allowing men all the access they want to women in vulnerable situations, whenever they wanted it, has ended well.

I'll wait.

Lordfrontpaw · 28/02/2020 07:38

He doesn’t seem to like women. That is all.

NeurotrashWarrior · 28/02/2020 07:42

To this whole thread!

🦄

Can't see Boris going for it.

TorkTorkBam · 28/02/2020 07:46

I am a cisgender, straight, white, male, middle-class Tory. If even I can muster enough self-awareness...

Ah, mate, have to stop you there. You have not mustered enough yet. Nowhere near.

Does the LSE not teach critical thinking anymore? Do the students just regurgitate anything they hear that sounds appealing on first thought? LSE used to have a good reputation.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/02/2020 09:17

I wish wellbehavedwomens post was actually likely to be read by this - and all the other 'cisgendered males' (regardless of sexuality,colour, class or political leanings) who are so proud of not giving a shit about women.

Needmoresleep · 28/02/2020 10:08

"Does the LSE not teach critical thinking anymore? Do the students just regurgitate anything they hear that sounds appealing on first thought? "

Isn't that a more general problem? Safe spaces, PCness, triggering, etc. There is less scope for DC to grow up hearing alternative views and develop their own ability to analyse critically. Plus a wider problem that so many subjects, including those taught by LSE, now have a lot more maths, and so developing quantitative skills are given preference.

There is a general debate in economics about how economic history and politics are losing out in the need to teach ever more complex maths. DS tells me he could have gained an LSE Economics degree only taking two economics course out of twelve - I think he took three, possibly four. Indeed he took a masters without writing an essay. At least part of the culture wars seems to be as a result in a shift in power from those with a humanities education to those with technical backgrounds. In the last week or so I think one of the tech giants - Facebook? - has said that they cannot "police" fake news on their own and have suggested Government regulation is needed. I sort of skimmed the article, but think it is correct that society, in the form of Government, should be the source of appropriate boundaries. And also that more thought is given to developing critical thinking skills. All that gender Gingerbread teaching in schools is doing no good at all. We need kids to be more like Murray, the Scottish teenager who challenged his teacher's TWAW pronouncements. And in the UK in particular we might consider how to introduce a broader education when so many bright kids give up humanities at the age of 16 in order to take three A levels, two of which are maths.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 28/02/2020 10:53

See there are some ideas that could help those questioning their gender identities, such as the right to some biology lessons and access to true information about any medical procedures they are contemplating.

I'd honestly rather see some pledges to support mental health.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/02/2020 11:16

Isn't that a more general problem? Safe spaces, PCness, triggering, etc.

Although you make some valid points, I'm pretty sure that stuff isn't primarily coming out of the science and engineering

ErrolTheDragon · 28/02/2020 11:20

...faculties

Sorry, fat finger.

Needmoresleep · 28/02/2020 11:28

No, I did not mean to say that.

Two issues. A cutting down of debate in humanities. And an increased dominance of techies within power structures as a result of social media.

Who is making decisions of who is banned from Twitter, Facebook etc? Why? Who decided that Meghan Murphy or Lord Moonie should be banned from Twitter. Why were Stonewall so able to enforce #nodebate.

It's as if, after women made inroads into traditional governance structures, male dominated tech industries have been able to reassert the patriarchy.

Langbannedforsafeguardingkids · 28/02/2020 11:33

The thing is, the crux of the argument that TW are vulnerable is in recognising that transwomen are biologically male. Because they deserve EXTRA accommodation, EXTRA consideration. Normal women - they're not allowed to have sad feelings about the lack of ability to determine themselves. They're not allowed to determine themselves.

Even if TW passed 100% (they don't ever in my experience) the way you could tell who is biologically male and biologically female would be who gets the extra consideration from other men.

The whole thing requires Orwellian mental gymnastics. Because if TWAW then their feelings should be discounted quite as easily as those women in prison who don't want to share with biological males, or the rape survivors who don't want to be in a refuge or hospital ward, or changing room with a biological male or the women who want their daughters to have privacy, dignity and access to education through single sex toilets. All those women whose feelings and the practical reality of their existence are so easily swept aside in favour of a tiny minority. Somehow, how TW feel, even if they're a convicted padeophile, is REALLY REALLY REALLY important - much much more important than another much much larger group of humans who will be affected quite badly by conceding to their wants. So important, in fact, it requires reams of policy and training and that everyone expend quite a lot of money and mental energy.

The kind of policy response and consideration clearly massively absent for the victims of the 98% of rapes that were reported to police and not prosecuted.

I wish all these woke men could get to live as a real biological woman for a week (preferably during a period or the postpartum period) and then try and tell us what to do.

But you know bearded wokesters - the answer is NO.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/02/2020 11:52

Who is making decisions of who is banned from Twitter, Facebook etc? Why? Who decided that Meghan Murphy or Lord Moonie should be banned from Twitter

Mostly Americans, who do have a broader education system?

I actually completely agree that the U.K. narrows too much and too early, but that's been the case for a long time.

HorseWithNoLang · 28/02/2020 11:58

Where did this "denying I exist" bollocks come from?

Did other groups use it in other situations? Or is is only a trans-mantra?

I'd love to know.

theflushedzebra · 28/02/2020 16:12

It's as if, after women made inroads into traditional governance structures, male dominated tech industries have been able to reassert the patriarchy.

I think this is a good analysis - and a lot of them have decided "TWAW".

That "denying we exist" thing is, I think, an example of "accusation is admission" - because the very sentence "transwomen are women" denies that women exist as a distinct biological group - the group that is born with a vagina and womb, produces ova, bears young, lactates.

Imnobody4 · 28/02/2020 16:25

1. Gender exists on a spectrum, is not binary, and is not necessarily related to the sex or the gender you were assigned at birth.
Has anyone ever been given a definition of gender? Perhaps they mean spectral.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 28/02/2020 16:37

They have the solution themselves on that list, in the first item.

Gender and sex are different.

So separate them properly, and stop conflating the two accidentally-on-purpose to confuse people and co-opt sex based rights as if they were gender-based rights

Michelleoftheresistance · 28/02/2020 16:48

If you dig into it, its the Tinkerbell belief.

The identity can only exist in fact if it is constantly externally validated, and this external validation is uninterrupted.

Failure to unconditionally affirm in all ways that someone's chosen sex is an actual fact - regardless of all evidence, reality, impact on others etc - is an interruption of validation, jarring the sense of self.

That this is a wholly unrealistic demand to make on others, a very unhealthy reliance on and dumping of personal responsibility on others to meet your needs and maintain your sense of identity (including all total strangers) instead of internally maintaining responsibility for sense of self, and a wholly unrealistic and unmeetable expectation that the world will never at any time jar internal choice of self by providing contradictory evidence, is naughty and unkind to mention. Because it interrupts the illusion of endless confirmation.

It's an outrageous demand to make of others.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/02/2020 18:38

Gender exists on a spectrum, is not binary, and is not necessarily related to the sex or the gender you were assigned at birth.

That's accurate. The huge mistake is that instead of then realising that it's sex - which is binary - which really matters, to instead try to make gender the be all and end all. The answer is to maintain sex-based distinctions where they are needed (changing rooms, sports, hospitals, choice of HCP etc) but apart from that to disallow gender discrimination.

mindtheclegs · 28/02/2020 19:41

Argh, think they may need some help understanding the Equality Act

twitter.com/vicparsons_/status/1231973189745627139

mindtheclegs · 28/02/2020 19:44

Oh, it's a few days old..

NonnyMouse1337 · 28/02/2020 19:54

Non-binary people are non-binary.

Heffalumps are heffalumps.

Smurfs are smurfs.

Any made up word can be justified by repeating it.

CamVegOut · 28/02/2020 19:56

Women not affected at all

Tory campaign for trans rights launched
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