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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I've just come out of a work event - LGBT terminology and pronouns... and lesbian erasure

65 replies

W0nderW0man · 25/02/2020 15:21

Earlier today I attended a panel discussion put on by my company to discuss LGBT terminology and pronouns. I know that I'd come away raging from the wokeness, but I came away raging!

There were reps from other woke organisations to talk about how they do things, and one of them brought along awareness guides to help us deal with/relate to to members of the community. There was a 'Gay Awareness Guide'. a 'Bisexual Awareness Guide' and a 'Transgender Awareness Guide'. Lesbians apparently do not deserve a guide. Confused

One organisation had a very vocal rep, who was so proud of their % of NB and trans in the workforce and suggested that every workplace should have targets for employing NB/Trans people! Do we get extra points for employing people who are trans and gay and from an ethnic minority?

The same rep also flippantly talked about their organisation's Twitter being trolled over the weekend after someone 'accidentally' posted a meme saying 'Cher hates TERFS'. It was those pesky lesbians that don't believe TWAW getting all het up apparently.

That was pretty much the first and last time that lesbians were mentioned.

We had the pleasure of a transwoman transplaining to us how important pronouns are whilst waving her hand around in an attempt to look more feminine.

I'm surprised that my eyeballs didn't fall out, they were rolling so much. The only positive moment was in the lift as we were leaving, a group of us stood in stunned silence until I asked if anyone else was bothered by the lesbian erasure and I could see the GC glint in several eyes! We may not all feel able to speak up, but it is gratifying to see that more and more people are peaking.

OP posts:
Qcng · 25/02/2020 21:41

🏁 = genderfree.

No idea what straight flag looks like

Qcng · 25/02/2020 21:44

Ok. Took all of ten seconds, but horizontal black and white striped do indeed represent "straight pride"
Not sure why that's needed, seeing as straight is the norm.

Siameasy · 25/02/2020 21:48

In my work place honestly people are fed up with rainbows. Everyone is sick of it. The word LGBT provokes eye rolling now. No other group gets mentioned.

Lordfrontpaw · 25/02/2020 21:52

I read a tweet where someone said that as a gay person they now viewed the rainbow flag as a person of an ethnic minority looks at the St George’s cross these days.

AutumnRose1 · 25/02/2020 22:04

“ I read a tweet where someone said that as a gay person they now viewed the rainbow flag as a person of an ethnic minority looks at the St George’s cross these days.”

Oh dear.

Plenty of us ethnic minorities happy to wear that and do when football’s on. I’m an English woman, the English flag doesnt upset me. Im not Emily Thornberry.

Lordfrontpaw · 25/02/2020 22:29

I think they meant what it has become to signify - most of my family falls into that category too.

BovaryX · 26/02/2020 10:39

One organisation had a very vocal rep, who was so proud of their % of NB and trans in the workforce and suggested that every workplace should have targets for employing NB/Trans people! Do we get extra points for employing people who are trans and gay and from an ethnic minority?

The recent posts about purity spirals were very interesting. 'Inclusive' and 'diversity' are the cudgels used to beat people into submission. Compelled speech is an existential threat to freedom of speech. This paradigm is not sustainable. An unraveling is on the horizon.

Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 10:42

Our company is a bit too over represented by gay men then by their reckoning.

Maybe we ought to sack some of them and find some less qualified people to fill their very skilled roles?

AutumnRose1 · 26/02/2020 11:01

Bovary “ 'Inclusive' and 'diversity' are the cudgels used to beat people into submission”

They have been for a really long time. I’m glad people are finally reacting though.

Frothybothie · 26/02/2020 11:11

Since the 1970s, surverys in counties where same sex relationships are legal, the precentages have been quite consistantly 4% homosexual, 4% neither wholly homosexual nor heterosexual. The remaining 92% heterosexual. Since the seemingly disproportioanl increase in Trans in teh last few years there mey be malleability to a small extent, but its an interesting fact all the same.

Do companies who pride themselves in being "representative" follow these proportions?

Equally as I have mentioned in similar census data of race, does the average person know these proportions, or woudl they think the proportions are MUCH higher in view of the increased publicity?

BovaryX · 26/02/2020 12:04

They have been for a really long time. I’m glad people are finally reacting though

AutumnRose
It's interesting, isn't it? The deliberate, manipulative use of language. 'Be kind' be 'inclusive,' promote 'diversity.' Who could possibly object? But these superficially laudable aims are accompanied by #no debate, cancel culture and spurious accusations of hate speech directed at anyone who doesn't submit to the new totalitarians. This hierarchy of oppression is replete with contradictions and double think. It is unsurprising that its advocates obsess about pronouns. They want to make Newspeak the only form of language permitted.

Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 12:12

'YOU Be kind' be 'inclusive,' promote 'diversity.' What do they do in return>

AutumnRose1 · 26/02/2020 12:29

Bovary I'd also say it's been a barrier to my career, because how can I apply for a job where it says they are effectively favouring BME candidates? I don't want anyone thinking I got the job on anything other than merit so all those jobs, I had to reject.

I realise that some people are looking to tick boxes but won't say so - nothing I can do about that.

Biggest bugbear of mine is the commute. I found out that a very suitable job for me had been advertised only in BME magazines. It was walking distance!! Never got over that one. but that's how determined they were to tick a box, so I would have been a bad fit for them perhaps.

do ads explicitly say LGBT now? Because that's almost worse, it's encroaching on people's sex lives!!

Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 12:46

When I see job ads who really push their 'WE ARE INCLUSIVE... ' then list how inclusive they are (often forgetting sex as a characteristic but not gender ID of course), I wonder - do I want to work for a place that would intentionally try to 'affirmative action' their staff ratios?

W0nderW0man · 26/02/2020 13:09

The rainbows are becoming a little too much. We have them for everything, and I see so many people from other companies with their rainbow lanyards and pins and mugs, where will it stop? One of the panelists yesterday was proud that they'd handed out 7000 rainbow lanyards within their organisation, but then joked that the people trying to promote the Mental Health lanyards were put out! Ridiculous.

With regards to the job ads, I had a quick search for an ad for the charity that Vocal Rep worked for and found this at the bottom:

Redacted is an equal opportunities organisation and applications are welcome from all sections of the community, particularly LGBT communities and/or people with disabilities who are under-represented.

Redacted is a Trans Positive employer, Stonewall Diversity Champion, a Mindful Employer, has been granted the Positive about Disabled People mark and Investors in People Platinum.

Basically, if you're straight and white, don't bother.

I have mocked up an email to the LGBT committee rep:

Hi,

Thanks for getting back to me.

I am very concerned about women’s rights and have been reading a lot about that issue and the ongoing problem of lesbian erasure, so it just jumped out at me yesterday as it’s something I’m particularly interested in.

I was disturbed that the guides provided by redacted only covered the GBT, no L. Upon reading the Gay Awareness Guide, it was confirmed that it was specifically regarding gay men so it’s not like lesbians had been contained within in that. It does seem that redacted has a guide for Lesbian Awareness but it was not included yesterday, whilst is fairly typical lesbian erasure.

I found Vocal Woke Rep from Charity to be quite offensive. TERF is a slur terfisaslur.com/ and has connotations with violence towards women and to be so glib about it was quite jarring. This poster that she referenced was not a ‘mistake’, nor was it ‘ just a funny picture’. There is no way that a woman who works so closely with LGBT people is not aware of the meaning and use of TERF.

insert picture of very outing poster that I can't share which features a photo of a sign saying 'CHER H8S TERFS'

I had a look at the Tweets she mentioned from Resisters and other women and this what I found. I don’t think that these Tweets are violent or rude, they are expecting some accountability for a charity using anti-female language.

Screenshots of tweets asking why this charity thinks it's acceptable to call women TERFS

I do not doubt that there is a real threat of violence towards trans and non-binary people, but that violence is not a one-way street and must be acknowledged. Using threatening language intended to shut women up is simply not acceptable.

This article about the silencing of lesbians blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-silencing-of-the-lesbians/ is an interesting read, as is this stats page users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/LGBT_figures.shtml showing the clear decline in the use of lesbian focused language from LGBT organisations. The LGB Alliance also raise good points regarding the protection of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people.

I’m sure that there was no specific intention to not represent lesbians (and bisexuals) in the panel, but that ‘not thinking’ about it is part of the problem. By leaving them out of the discussion, it is easy to forget that they exist, and any ‘dispute’ within the community can be blamed on the missing parties.

Our company is very supportive of women, which I appreciate greatly, I would hate for that to change in the quest to be ‘inclusive’, as women tend to lose rights whilst others gain.

Kind regards,
Disgruntled TERF

Is that OK do you think?

OP posts:
Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 13:13

What are your demands? They can have them, so can we!

AutumnRose1 · 26/02/2020 13:21

Really well written, OP.

W0nderW0man · 26/02/2020 13:21

Oh I don't know? I just don't want to be sacked for not being able to keep my mouth shut!

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 26/02/2020 13:25

Ok. Took all of ten seconds, but horizontal black and white striped do indeed represent "straight pride" Not sure why that's needed, seeing as straight is the norm.

It's logical if the point is celebration of ones own sexuality. As soon as things like Pride ceased to be about rights etc, and became a celebration of public sexuality, or as soon as it's seen as important to take pride in one's own sexual expression, it makes sense to include everyone.

Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 13:33

I don't really want a flag - the world doesn't need to have confirmation of my sex or sexuality.

LonginesPrime · 26/02/2020 13:53

I just don't want to be sacked for not being able to keep my mouth shut!

It's a bold move, OP.

I had similar concerns about my career and the way I handled it in my organisation was to focus solely on the offensive things I was objecting to (the use of T*RF, the fact lesbians were left out, etc) so they have something concrete an non-political to address.

Personally, I wouldn't go into whether Resisters' tweets were offensive or send links to terfisaslur, etc - if you do, there's a good chance you'll be labelled as a bigot (especially if the organiser speaks to the charity about your concerns). You can always bring these points up later, but I wouldn't put this level of detail into your initial complaint as you're detracting from how you, as a female employee, were personally affected by the offensive language used about women while in your workplace. That's the bit an employer should be particularly concerned about, along with not being inclusive of lesbians.

IMO, the best way to get your concerns addressed is to approach the organiser from a position of innocent questioning of the shockingly sexist and misogynist comments included in the presentation.

My advice would be not to look too informed at this point because your 'political' position will be used against and will detract from the offensiveness of the comments.

You don't have to out yourself as GC to challenge these comments. If you're happy to, then that's great. But personally, I would think very carefully about outing myself in an organisation that is woke enough to put on this event in the first place. Especially if you like your job and need your income.

I'm not saying don't speak up - just be careful. There are several amazing, brave women who have spoken up, but I'm sure none of them wanted to lose their jobs and become poster children for free speech - some can't even take their own children out in public for fear of their safety, which is a situation none of us want to be in.

W0nderW0man · 26/02/2020 14:05

Very good advice, thank you LonginesPrime!

Chopped it down to appear less informed:

Thanks for getting back to me.

I believe that equality for all is a fundamental right and I agree that everyone should be treated with respect and addressed etc as they wish.

I was disturbed that the guides provided by redacted only covered the GBT, no L. Upon reading the Gay Awareness Guide, it was confirmed that it was specifically regarding gay men so it’s not like lesbians had been contained within in that. It does seem that redacted has a guide for Lesbian Awareness but it was not included yesterday, do you know why that is?

I found Vocal Woke Rep from Charity to be quite offensive. As far as I am aware, TERF is a slur and has connotations with violence towards women and to be so glib about it was quite jarring. I had a look at the problem poster that she mentioned and I found it quite upsetting to be honest.

I’m sure that there was no specific intention to not represent lesbians (and bisexuals) in the panel, but that ‘not thinking’ about it is part of the problem. By leaving them out of the discussion, it is easy to forget that they exist, and any ‘dispute’ within the community can be blamed on the missing parties.

Our company is very supportive of women, which I appreciate greatly, I would hate for that to change.

OP posts:
BovaryX · 26/02/2020 14:09

I don't want anyone thinking I got the job on anything other than merit so all those jobs, I had to reject
AutumnRose
Absolutely agree with you about this. I think it is one of the myriad unpredicted negative consequences of so many superficially 'positive ' policies which seem to be entrenching an unhealthy obsession with identity politics.

AutumnRose1 · 26/02/2020 14:32

Bovary, it’s so predictable though. It can’t be filed under unintended consequences which in turn makes me think they’re looking for a person who thinks a particular way and they hope they can find that by using skin colour or ethnic origin.

BigFatLiar · 26/02/2020 14:47

Straight pride? Didn't know such a thing existed!
Next we need a tea milk no sugar pride.

It's all a bit much, glad I'm out of it these days. Why can't people just get on with their jobs, who cares whether or not your straight/gay/no or anything else.