Dawn Butler on R4 just now - mostly sensible with blasts of silly

[bellinisurge]

Just heard Dawn Butler on R4 Today.
As well as nonsense about "every time this is discussed a trans person is hurt" and "the media are amplifying this - we get asked about it every single time" [good!], she seemed to accept that biology is real.
Was a bit annoyed at Mishal Hussein saying sex was "assigned at birth " rather than observed but Dawn Butler did seem to be accepting that we are born as "little boys" or "little girls".
Kinda sad I should be celebrating some one stating the fucking obvious but maybe, just maybe, Labour is starting to twig that this isn't going to poll well.

every time this is discussed a trans person is hurt
It’s ok, you can remedy that by clapping your hands together really fast. Oh no, wait....that’s for when people don’t believe in fairies

WHAT ABOUT WOMEN, DAWN? Every time someone claims ‘being a woman’ is about anything other then our biological sex class and therefore the discrimination and harassment we face are as a result of societal stereotypes and expectations attached to it - WOMEN ARE HURT.

I’ll give it a listen once I’ve had breakfast and am not so ratty thanks for the heads up.

On another thread I have described my hope that Labour can start to have a proper discussion about this as embarrassingly craven. I fear it is. I shouldn't be scrabbling around for crumbs from a party that is failing on this.

Whenever women are asked to be more kind it really means put aside your own feelings and prioritise someone else's. Women's feelings don't matter. Surely everyone knows that?

It would be good if they dared to discuss why men's spaces are so hostile for trans people and why men shouldn't have to deal with someone who is "gender non-conforming" in their space but women should happily accept a male bodied person in theirs. Or that sportswoman should just move over.

It would be good if they dared to discuss why men's spaces are so hostile for trans people

This was what most sensible women have been suggesting right from the start. Not how women can campaign for third spaces, not how women can be kinder, not how we can be coerced into being labelled “cis” - simply another category under the “women” umbrella, just like transwomen.

Men need to sort themselves the fuck out and be more accepting and welcoming of all men, however they present. This is not our problem.

we get asked about it every single time

You would think, after a while it would sink in that it's a subject the public are worried about and not the tiny fringe issue labour claim.

It was indeed strange to find myself relieved that a politician acknowledged the existence of little girls and little boys.

Although the interviewer sounded almost apologetic about raising such a shameful possibility.

But in all honesty Dawn Butler already sounds so exhausted and fed up I cannot imagine anyone feeling she has any energy left for leadership.

I think Mishal Hussein was using some of the standard "don't shout at me" media bollocks for fear of a TRA backlash but it sounded increasingly weak. I wonder if mainstream media will start to be a bit less timid and a bit more interesting inquiring. We shouldn't be relying on Piers Fucking Morgan to ask testing questions.

Is there noone in Dawns life who is willing to take her to one side and say ‘look luv... you are making an enormous tit out of yourself - step away from the rainbow...’

I hope so.

every time this is discussed a trans person is hurt

Always makes me think of this meme.

STOP TALKING ABOUT MY BRAND OF MISOGYNY OR YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MALE VIOLENCE TOWARDS SOMEONE ELSE!

Fuck off with your bullshit Dawn, there's a love.

So sick of the emphasis on trans and what a hard time they have. Women die daily. Women get raped daily. Women get sexually harassed daily. Women have to deal with and be seriously disadvantaged by sexism daily. No one gives a bloody damn, so why in the name of everything should we give a damn about some particularly entitled males.

You would think, after a while it would sink in that it's a subject the public are worried about and not the tiny fringe issue Labour claim.

Remember that canvasser, professing shocked astonishment at "how many people in the party were transphobic..."? So - which is it? Nobody cares and it's never raised on the doorstep, or a massive issue people just won't drop?

If a bunch of people who care about the world and other people start telling you you have it badly wrong, it might be an idea to start to at least listen. Especially when you need their vote and their money, while they need absolutely nothing from you.

Labour's present predicament is not unrelated to their view that we have to earn their trust, and not vice versa.

I would of loosely called myself a feminist but I just don’t get this argument trans people are attacked daily for who they are so are some women black people muslims why is talking about trans rights and safety deflecting away from those issues if someone wants to transition to another sex or define them self as gender fluid or non binary how does this diminish women’s rights it’s it what like are like as a human being that matters not what they have between their legs?

Hi Katienlisa, welcome to MN & FWR. You’ve posted a few questions/statements about not understanding what women’s concerns are on this board - here’s a great thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me which is a good place to start, warning - it’s long with lots to take in and lots of links to follow! Enjoy!

"Tiny fringe issue". No, it's not a fringe issue. What it has become is a no-holds-barred "debate" on the role and rights of women. I put "debate" because of course, "no debate". We are supposed to just shut up and "be nice" and let men strangle us if they want to express their sexual fetishes. If we have no separate single sex spaces, if women are not allowed to voice issues about the biological realities of their lives, then women and women's concerns get crushed. We've seen it all before.

Thanks for the link tbh I’m still not convinced how someone else indentifying as trans and self identification is eroding women’s rights maybe it’s because through the charity I work for I see the damage inflicted by these so called tolerant feminists on our young trans community it’s the non binary issue I struggled to get my head around until I realised whether someone indentifies as male or female or neither isn’t really anyone else’s Damn business

It damn well is my business Katienlisa and if you can't or won't see how adult human female's (aka women) rights will be and are being eroded then you are either being wilfully blind or lack critical thinking skills.

oh dear Katienlisa does not understand that everyday men rape women and girls.
Yes your gender does matter. as a mother and grandmother I want to know what gender a person is who is sharing a changing room with my young girls.
Women are not safe from men
So it matters.

I forgot to add I am referring to something more than just hurt feelz.......I don't care atll if a person changes their gender.
But stop asking for mixed gender spaces.
You learn to cope with your choices while I cope with being female in todays world.

Firstly in terms of the fuss about gender neutral toilets most of those which are new being built are single use cubicles very similar to disabled toilets so the argument that women are at risk in this is utterly
Ridiculous. Secondly as myself and wife are both survivors of rape and in my wife cases sexual abuse as a child we are well aware of the dangerous that men can pose to women. The fact still remains the majority of sex offenders are straight males. Show me the evidence of the transgendered males being sex offenders and I might understand your argument. Whether someone identifies as as Male or female is absolutely no ones business and the fact that u think it is shows your inflated sense of self
Importance because what adults do as long as they are not posing a risk to anyone is none of your business. This is the problem with this brand of feminism and why it’s dying a death. My rights as a women don’t diminsh or get eroded because someone I don’t know decides he wants to identify as female. Again show me the stats of trans men that attack or harm women. If someone is that sick they want to do that they will do it whether or not they are trans or a man who wants to put on a frock and define themselves as female. Where as the statistics of trans suicide self harm and murders are staggering. People shouldn’t use the guise of feminism to preach intolerance. And if this means I’m
Not a feminist or a supporter or women rights in the eyes or the extremists that thank god for that because I’d rather be like this than ignorant

transcrimeuk.com/

So the trans woman in the current case (raping women in a woman’s jail) in the US was only a pretend trans woman? They aren’t the first and feral tail you won’t be the last if males are allowed into woman’s prisons (or other woman only facilities). This isn’t intolerance this is just fact.

Yes - there are cases of men pretending - but if we get to the point where no one can challenge this or call them out then we have no safety net. And if a male bodied person can legally claim ‘woman’ and therefore access to woman’s spaces, shortlists, groups etc then it means nothing.

So yes - if someone can just claim ‘man’ or ‘woman’ it is our business.

‘feral tail you’ certainly won’t be (my autocorrect is crazy)