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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fausto-Sterling: "5 genders? I was ironic. It's called scholarship"

56 replies

ArranUpsideDown · 19/02/2020 09:07

I've paraphrased it but that's pretty much the content.

I'll inform your students IF you learn the history of scholarship in the field and drop the false indignation. It does not become such a young man. AND writing an ironic essay is not a lie. Get over yourself!

Excellent @LadyPrincesexual Jane Clare Jones thread in response:

I teach feminism. I see your essay on syllabuses all over the place. Your work is referenced by Stephen Whittle, who was the architect if this political movement in this country. He wrote an essay after the GRA announcing that biological sex was no longer legally relevant. [cont.]

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1229882673000304640?s=20]]

Fausto-Sterling: "5 genders? I was ironic. It's called scholarship"
OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 19/02/2020 12:09

A tongue-in-cheek (fiction) article was referred to in a legal judgement as fact?

Thingybob · 19/02/2020 12:25

It seems to me that A-F-S work from 1993 is being taught as 'scientific' fact when she stated back in 2000 that it was 'tongue in cheek'

I had written for The Sciences, titled "The Five Sexes" [March/April 1993]. In that article I argued that the two-sex system embedded in our society is not adequate to encompass the full spectrum of human sexuality. In its place, I suggested a five-sex system. In addition to males and females, I included "herms" (named after true hermaphrodites, people born with both a testis and an ovary); "merms" (male pseudohermaphrodites, who are born with testes and some aspect of female genitalia); and "ferms" (female pseudohermaphrodites, who have ovaries combined with some aspect of male genitalia).

I had intended to be provocative, but I had also written with tongue firmly in cheek. So I was surprised by the extent of the controversy the article unleashed. Right-wing Christians were outraged, and connected my idea of five sexes with the United Nations--sponsored Fourth World Conference on Women, held in Beijing in September 1995. At the same time, the article delighted others who felt constrained by the current sex and gender system

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20071121131920/www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/5sexesrevisited.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20071121131920/www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/5sexesrevisited.htm

The evidence used in Maya's case include a NYT article by A-F-S but I have no ides if that was also 'tongue in cheek'

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2020 12:33

Here’s the 5 sexes essay. Can anyone point out the tongue in cheek bits? I’m baffled.

crl.ucsd.edu/~elman/Courses/HDP1/2000/LectureNotes/fausto-sterling.pdf

OldCrone · 19/02/2020 12:35

You can read the 5 sexes paper here.
www.researchgate.net/publication/239657377_The_Five_Sexes_Why_Male_and_Female_are_not_Enough

And this is her latest article.
bostonreview.net/science-nature-gender-sexuality/anne-fausto-sterling-science-wont-settle-trans-rights

I haven't read this latest article yet, but I don't think she's changed her view at all. According to her, 'material reality' is an 'abstract notion', and there's a 'debate' about whether babies are born with a pre-existing sex or born without a sex (and 'assigned' one at birth).

I fully support the rights of transgender people to live free from the fear of violence, to use public facilities as they wish, to participate in competitive sports, and to enjoy fair and equal education and employment opportunities. At this historical moment, however, these rights often remain aspirational. Resistance to their achievement is widespread. If, as a society, we want to make progress, it is important to sort through the charged appeals to abstract notions such as scientific truth, material reality, and freedom of speech.

Debates about whether one is born with a pre-existing sex or assigned one at birth, as well as the legal disputes about whether sex is fixed and binary or complex and changeable, appear to be about scientific truthiness. But they are really part of the for-the-moment unsettled process of world-building. It is not yet clear how to build a world in which sex-diverse and sexually diverse people can live with the same expectations of physical safety and economic opportunity as majority-bodied and gender-identified people.

theflushedzebra · 19/02/2020 13:02

Oh my fuck.

I'm not an academic, but do I take from this that the person who wrote a pivotal essay, which has been used by people like Stephen Whittle to change our fucking laws is now saying it was a joke? Sorry. "Ironic."

Well I always knew it was a fucking joke. Can someone tell Labour. Can we stop this nonsense now?!

EndoplasmicReticulum · 19/02/2020 13:38

I think Alice Roberts was using this as evidence too.

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2020 13:59

I’ve googled and seen Alice Roberts refer people to ‘Fausto-Sterling’s excellent and careful research’.

At which point did Fausto-Sterling move from being someone who wrote joke articles about intersex people to an actual scientist?

RuffleCrow · 19/02/2020 14:09

Expect a lot more of this now the public is waking up to the dangers of genderism.

Before long it'll be:

LOJ: I was joking about the wrong side of history! Women are adult human females. Dur!

RLB: Look, the only trans i'm interested in, or have ever been interested in is the TRANSformation of Britain through Keir's 5 year plan...

MB: When did I even say I was a woman?!

The police: we're very concerned about these so-called trans rights groups that have been, (entirely independently of the state), silencing and intimidating women...

I might go and write a play about it! Grin

ArranUpsideDown · 19/02/2020 14:14

I’ve googled and seen Alice Roberts refer people to ‘Fausto-Sterling’s excellent and careful research’.

If only she hadn't blocked GC people maybe one of them might be able to ask her if she has an update on her endorsement of Fausto-Sterling's "excellent and careful research."

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 19/02/2020 14:25

Look, I’ve written that there are 5 sexes. I’ve given biological details about how those 5 different sexes manifest themselves and repeated real life stories of their manifestations. I’ve referred to real people at John Hopkins to estimate the incidence of the 3 additional sexes in the population as around 4%. I’ve talked about how poorly doctors treat those 3 additional sexes.

JOKES!

Durgasarrow · 19/02/2020 14:38

This is huge. Basically, it means that many of the premises that transgender ideology is based on are out and out lies. Especially:
--There are no multiple genders. This idea of hers was "tongue in cheek."
--2 percent of the population is NOT intersex. This idea of hers was based on faulty suppositions of her that were not backed up by the research she herself cites. Even the creepy John Money refutes the claims she makes based on his research.
She is a liar who has caused immeasurable harm to the world that she is now trying to blow off.

T

Durgasarrow · 19/02/2020 14:44

Now, the TRA community is panicking. On Twitter:

shadiya
@_makethmurder
·
4h
Replying to
@2damntrans
Oh my goddddd ANNE FAUSTO-STERLING??? THATS WHO THE TERFS ARE ATTACKING NOW???????

just adrienne for now
@adrienneleigh
·
15h
Hey, folks, TERFs are dogpiling Anne Fausto-Sterling, whose work on gender is pretty fucking important and has been for literally decades now. If you've got time & energy, please go help clean out her mentions with the Report button.

ArranUpsideDown · 19/02/2020 14:58

Now, the TRA community is panicking. On Twitter:

It is huge to the point where I'm struggling to come up with an appropriate analogy that doesn't sound hyperbolic and yet, as Jane Clare Jones says, Fausto-Sterling's work has been used as both motivation and justification to change legislation in a way that has harmed the human rights of women. People have lost employment - and we're only too aware of the harms that have already been done to women in domestic violence refuges and prison.

Fausto-Sterling needs to make a public statement, write a paper, and publish it.

That would be the decent, honourable thing to do. The icing on the cake would be if she:
identified the countries who have changed their laws and policies because her work was relied upon;
wrote to the relevant Ministers/Dept. Heads;
offered to travel and be a witness at government events to lay out how egregiously policy-makers erred in listening to those who used her work as justification.

OP posts:
Melroses · 19/02/2020 15:05

Is this work a Cornerstone/Foundation block?

Will the rest of it stay up, with a big hole at the bottom?

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2020 15:12

So on twitter she says that when she wrote her essay, people took it literally and told her she knew nothing about biology.

What’s the truth, that she really knew nothing about biology, or that what appears to be an entirely serious essay was actually a joke. A joke which she appears to have expanded upon in later years?

When my little girl is caught out in a lie, or if she says something stupid, she will often say ‘I was only joking’ to try to get out of trouble or to avoid embarrassment.

Fausto-Sterling: "5 genders? I was ironic. It's called scholarship"
Melroses · 19/02/2020 15:16

Only joking is often used by abusers when they are called out.

OldCrone · 19/02/2020 15:52

I've now read the two papers, the original 5 sexes one and the 'revisited' one from 2000. The first one is about intersex people, and argues against intersex people having their genitalia 'corrected' early in their life to fit a more 'normal' appearance of male or female. She doesn't mention transgenderism at all in this paper. At the end of the paper (in my link, which looks like a scan of the paper original) there is some correspondence, which includes a letter from John Money and also one from Cheryl Chase, who Fausto-Sterling talks about in the second paper. There is also a reply to some of these comments from Fausto-Sterling, where she says that she was being 'ironic' (see screenshot).

Her classification of intersex people as 3 separate sexes distinct from male and female seems unsympathetic and offensive to intersex people. If this is what she was suggesting was 'ironic' in her tweets, I assume it's trying to minimise the offence she had caused.

The second paper is the one in which she starts to conflate intersex and transgenderism, using the idea that because some people are not clearly and unambiguously male or female, therefore people who are unambiguously male or female might have an opposite sex gender identity which makes them not either male or female, similar to the way in which she thinks someone with an intersex condition is neither male nor female.

It might seem natural to regard intersexuals and transgendered people as living midway between the poles of male and female. But male and female, masculine and feminine, cannot be parsed assome kind ofcontinuum. Rather, sex and gender are best conceptualized as points in a multidimensional space. For some time, experts on gender development have distinguished between sex at the genetic level and at the cellular level (sex-specific gene expression, X and Y chromosomes); at the hormonal level (in the fetus, during childhood and after puberty); and at the anatomical level (genitals and secondary sexual characteristics). Gender identity presumably emerges from all of those corporeal aspects via some poorly understood interaction with environment and experience. What has become increasingly clear is that one can find levels of masculinity and femininity in almost every possible permutation. A chromosomal, hormonal and genital male (or female) may emerge with a female (or male) gender identity. Or a chromosomal female with male fetal hormones and masculinized genitalia - but with female pubertal hormones - may develop a female gender identity.

I'm not convinced that anything she is saying now indicates that she is retracting this view.

Fausto-Sterling: "5 genders? I was ironic. It's called scholarship"
Melroses · 19/02/2020 16:38

If paper 2 is built on the ideas of intersex being an intermediate state introduced in paper 1 (which is ironic) then is paper 2 not also ironic?

ThinEndoftheWedge · 19/02/2020 16:53

Twitter Bio

Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling is a leading expert on the development of sexual identity as well as the biology of gender.

Err... biology of gender...hmm...problem in nutshell.. it’s the social construction of gender...

CaveMum · 19/02/2020 17:01

I discovered this blog a while ago that is an excellent take down of Fausto-Sterling’s position (I tweeted it to the good Dr Alice but don’t think she read it 😜).

Looks like I won’t need to keep wheeling it out every time the intersex stats are thrown around by TRAs.

www.leonardsax.com/how-common-is-intersex-a-response-to-anne-fausto-sterling/

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2020 17:27

I haven't read the source work but in fairness to AFS, if I read there were 5 sexes in a biology paper in 93, I would assume it was a joke.

Subtle, but obviously silly, statements are not uncommon to liven up interminable papers. Done it myself.

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2020 17:28

Even if she'd meant it seriously, it would mean nothing. We don't change strongly established Science because one person suggests it.

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2020 17:31

This isn’t science though, this social science.

nauticant · 19/02/2020 18:26

Trans activists now have their very own Piltdown Person.

MoleSmokes · 22/02/2020 07:38

"Trans activists now have their very own Piltdown Person." Grin

Am I right in thinking Maggie Nelson is a Mumsnetter? @Flashmaggie ?
deadinteresting.blogspot.com

I am dreaming of the discovery that examination of archeological remains "proves" the repeated claims that "we have always been here for millennia!".

The dénouement: Anne Fausto-Sterling, aided by psychic side-kick Layla Moran, determines (ironically!) that "Piltdown Man" was non-binary, is henceforth to be referred to as "Piltdown Person" and has been adopted as official mascot of the College of Policing!