"Woman" MP/leader instead of "Female" MP/leader

[pearlkent]

I have recently noticed this being used on the radio/TV and it's really grating as it is surely grammatically incorrect? Is it one of those sinister shifts in language?

For example when discussing the Labour leadership contest, people have started saying "should we have a woman leader?" rather than "should we have a female leader?". Or they talk about a "woman MP" instead of a "female MP". Or "there are too few women MPs" instead of "female MPs".

No one would ever say a "man MP" or a "man leader" would they?

Am I being paranoid, and if not, why have people started doing this?

This drives me crazy! Not even from a feminist point of view, but a grammar one! From my understanding "woman" and "women" are nouns. If they want to state the gender (for some reason), they should definitely use "female". And you're right: I've never seen them do it for men.

The word female is verboten.

It's not a new thing, though - it's always been like this. When I was a kid people used to talk about seeing the "woman doctor" or even the "lady doctor". They'd say things like "I don't think we'll ever see a woman prime minister".

I agree, it is an interesting anomaly, though.

Oh interesting

Yes it would have been 1st female MP etc

You are right this is a change
To allow for the new definition of woman- first woman MP doesn't mean female.

Although female is up for grabs at the moment as well.

Xposts

Female sounds more natural in terms of what used to be said

Lady doctor etc wasn't used on the news and stuff

Although they might say more women are entering the profession

We now are seeming to have to analyse language and fight for words which were always universally understood before

Is there a sense that 'woman ' is more respectful? Female is seen as sciencey and maybe sounds a bit cold? Maybe like the sex/gender blurring, people go with what seems 'nicer' . And accuracy is sacrificed for social nicety.

Female definitely used to be used,

But yes it's a point

Woman is considered a bit rude, so people say lady, in day to day life, a lot of the time. Man is of course fine.

All of this shows up the difficulties that already existed around women, language, hierarchy, etc. And it's being exploited.

The thing where willy is a widely accepted 'friendly' term for penis but for girls there isn't one, is a good example of this.

In the past it would have been, we need to get a better % of female MPs. As an example. For sure.

Connie Gore-Booth, Nancy Astor, Margaret Bondfield, Ellen Wilkinson, Margaret Thatcher, all referred to as the first woman xxx.

(Elected MP, MP taking her seat, government minister, cabinet minister, prime minister.)

I don't think it's a new thing, "woman " has been in use for years, though perhaps it's become more entrenched recently. Drives me batty as it sounds so awkward. No one would say "man MP"!

To be honest these day I’d prefer to see the word ‘woman’ as a descriptor over ‘female’. At least there’s a fighting chance of it being a woman rather than someone arguing that they ‘feel’ like one. But then, what’s a ‘woman’ these days?

It sounds derogatory to me. Hard to say why. Maybe because woman isn't an adjective so it comes across as 'woman, who is also an MP' - emphasising the woman bit.

'Connie Gore-Booth, Nancy Astor, Margaret Bondfield, Ellen Wilkinson, Margaret Thatcher, all referred to as the first woman xxx.'

Were they? I remember first female X for this sort of thing.

What's interesting is that language around women and girls was always tricky even before this. It's why a foot has got in the door.

Wiki Maggie simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

First female prime minister

Female heads of state

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elected_and_appointed_female_heads_of_state_and_government

Agree in daily language it's different

Also women in stem, as example, not females in stem

This is down to ways language are used, I'm no linguist, but female definitely was used.

If people are noticing a change, sounds jarring, then probably it is a change. Move to woman when female was used is political.

Wiki Maggie simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

First female prime minister

That's now. Not at the time. As Education Secretary, she famously said, "I don't think there will be a woman prime minister in my lifetime," and during her leadership campaign was asked, "Is the country ready for a woman prime minister."

Well sure

That's the point about language

I was around when Maggie was pm .. official stuff still talked about female X or y or z

Meanwhile sports always has women's xyz.. or at least the vast majority of the time.

That's the point, language has nuance depending on who is talking to who about what etc. Language around women and girls seems to be more tricky than men/ boys even before all this.

Move from female to women > that if people are noticing it sounds weird or jars on the ear then it's a change to how it's normally expressed through whatever format, in whatever situation, is political.

Eg mras refer to women as females a lot, that's not good. It's where it's a change from the norm. That it jars.

See also Policewoman, or WPC, a specific rank and job. After the force was sexually integrated, they started to refer to 'female officers.'

'Male nurse' was also a specific job and role, especially in the mental health sector in the bad old days of asylums.

Not man nurse?!

If people are noticing references that jar, it is a change. Why has it changed. It's a good question to ask.

I knew a few male psychiatric nurses back in the day!

They were well built. To put it mildly...

My point is that if people are hearing things that jar, then terminology is changing.

As it's rightly pointed out it has done with wpc (change accepted) to firefighter (not used much IRL IME).

this change that op has noticed, has reasons.

...Never 'man-nurse.'

And the male psychiatric nurses and especially the nursing assistant were mostly big lads with a specific role in the, er, care-plan.

Yep I think that was the role of my massive Goth mates.

I'm not sure how it works now.

The idea of mixed psychiatric wards is horrendous.

Given what has been happening, I'm also inclined to wonder if there is sinister intent behind it. Good question.

I would definitely say female MP not woman MP. and I think it's especially important right now to stick with that.

I'm also reminded of the manwhohasitall twitter account and his T-shirts: Scientist and Male Scientist etc.

Better than female ad a noun.

I was on a different forum and you get questions like,

“Why do females never return my calls?” Urgh. (Probably because you call them females).