Are gay men really a risk to women?

[Polynerd]

The @fairplaywomen account tweeted this today:"Male people are an inherent risk to women and children. That includes all groups of males. Gay males, straight males, trans-identified males, white males, black males, old males, young males...."
Are gay men really a risk to women? Personally I think they are an emotional risk, given the numbers of my gay friends who would drop me like a brick of they knew of my GC views. But I would not be at all surprised to learn that gay men physically hurt women at a proportionally much lower rate than straight men. Views?

The larger point is that no men belong in women's spaces.

None of us can tell who the gay man is, who the trustworthy straight guy is...so to manage risk, we exclude all males from female same-sex provision. God, it's not hard, is it?

Of course if I got a choice of men to be alone in a dark alley with, I'd choose the gay guy as lower risk. Still doesn't mean he poses no risk.

some of the most mysogynistic men I’ve ever encountered just happened to be gay. In that respect they can contribute to the oppression of women which in turn puts us at risk.

I agree with this. The way I've heard many speak about the female anatomy is disgusting.

Men - gay, straight or bi - are NOT our allies

Some of the most mysogynistic men I’ve ever encountered just happened to be gay. In that respect they can contribute to the oppression of women which in turn puts us at risk

I agree with this. The way I've heard many speak about the female anatomy is disgusting.

Agreed.

Also, my experience is that many gay men simply don't see women. We are not on their dick radar so we are invisible. In workplaces, our needs are invisible, as our ambitions and often our work. It's as if the reminder that women are equal humans happens mainly in heterosexual spaces and many gay men simply haven't registered that it's even an issue. In other cases, they quite like emotional support from women and the titillation of their little groupies but they give nothing in return; it's all about them.

Of course, NAGMALT.

I've experienced gay men acting as poorly as straight men on occasion, just as rude and entitled. I think generally gay men are more of a risk if you're a gay man, in the same way straight men are a risk to straight women. Men are more violent than women and their intimate partners are at the greatest risk. But yeah I'd not want an exclusive female space to include gay men as I'd see them as as problematic. So if I'm requesting a female doctor I don't want a gay man, if I'm in a woman's changing room or hospital ward or god forbid prison, I don't want any men, regardless of sexuality.

Surely it means no particular group of men? My boyfriend is absolutely lovely and no risk to women whatsoever but I would never suggest that he should be accepted in women's spaces because he isn't a woman.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7413803/Male-nurse-58-treated-patients-vagina-like-puppet-staff-KEEPS-hospital-job.html
It wasn't sexual because of his sexual orientation.
It's not just violence it's misogyny + biology i.e. strength

I would assume that they are. Not because they are gay but because they are men.

Abuse is not about sexuality its about power. And men as a class have power over women.

And agree with the pp about contributing to womens oppression via surrogacy etc

Gay men are just as capable as straight men of harassment of women. We're just meant to laugh and take being the butt of the 'joke' when it's gay men feeling entitled to manhandle our bodies or otherwise demean us

This. And this

Some of the most mysogynistic men I’ve ever encountered just happened to be gay. In that respect they can contribute to the oppression of women which in turn puts us at risk

Some gay men are allies and some are not. Just like straight men.

I got deleted for expressing exactly the thoughts being expressed on this thread. No personal or targeted slurs, just a general comment borne out my own experience 😕

Safety is of course an important issue - and certainly when it comes to child safeguarding and protecting vulnerable women - but I think the emphasis, in much of the emerging public debate, is too much on safety at times; to the detriment of dignity,comfort andprivacy ; and to the acknowledgement of the separate and distinct needs of different groups of people - women being the group in question here.

Women are at physical risk from three groups of violent straight men: those that perpetuate domestic abuse, sexual predators and petty criminals like burglary, kidnapping etc. Gay men are less likely to be in a domestic setting with women but obviously most have mothers that they live with at some point and many have daughters. The sexual violence category is very unlikely to arise amongst homosexual men but there may still be cases where gay men participate in sexual violence motivated by someone else. The last category of general criminals, well as far as I’m aware, being gay doesn’t make you less likely to be involved in something like that. Obviously heterosexual women can pose a risk to other women in the same way but of course women generally don’t have a physical and socialised advantage over women while men do.

Gay men are still male-bodied people.

When you start talking about their motivation and whether they actually want to kill women, you're going down a dangerous route of deciding that some male-bodied people are safer to be around than others, based on what's inside their heads.

This is the argument that TRAs use to persuade people that trans women are safe for women to be around even though the general male population isn't.

It's not about men's sexuality, gender identity or anything else going on in their minds - it's about their bodies - their male bodies.

Personal anecdote. I have been assaulted several times (breasts and undercarriage grabbed) by gay men, as apparently it "didn't matter" because they weren't attracted to women.

Pp said that women are invisible to gay men.

I would go so far as to say that women are dead to them. To some, women are Other, non human, not deserving of respect or human rights. I think that’s why some of the worst misogynists I’ve seen are gay men, they drip with hate for women.

If you treat any group of men as safe, predators will pretend to be this group. Why have we still not learned this? This article was published twenty years ago in the Independent...

With the normal checks no longer available to those making appointments, Islington became wide open for sexual predators to move in, and the lax procedures were systematically exploited by determined men seeking to use the children for their own ends.

‘The equal opportunities team could also intervene in disciplinary procedures. In the comprehensive report which was finally published three years after the first London Evening Standard story appeared, Ian White, who is now the social services director of Hertfordshire, wrote: “We were told that managers believed they would not be supported if they triggered disciplinary investigations involving staff who may be from ethnic minorities or members of the gay community.” Many of the 22 against whom allegations were made were from these groups, in particular gays. Much of the abuse resulted from the fact that there was an overemphasis on recruiting people who called themselves gay but were in fact paedophiles. White concludes that positive discrimination allowed staff to exploit the children in their care for their own purposes.’

www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2000/10/forgotten-children-the-background-to-the-childrens-homes-scandals/

As PP said, it's not just about risk but dignity and privacy. I'm sure most women don't feel comfortable undressing in front of a gay man simply because he's a man, even if he's not going to have any sexual attraction to their body or pose a sexual threat.

Is there a dictionary definition/word/phrase for when women behave towards men as a group in a manner that would be misogynistic if it were men behaving same way towards women as a group?

I once had a gay man physically threaten me when I was heavily pregnant (he and his partner were very noisy neighbours and I had politely complained). He said some very misogynistic things and I was startled because I suppose I had naively not really thought that gay men could be as misogynistic as straight men, having happily subscribed to that Will and Grace kind of cliche. Since then I've witnessed it in a workplace dominated by gay men, where women were excluded and pushed out and made to feel unwelcome. So sadly, I just see them as men like any other in that regard and do not assume that they will be on the side of women.

Apparently the word is misandrist.

The word might be "fear"

Yes, or perhaps ‘understanding data’

I'm not sure how it's misandrist to say that 'gay men are men'.

This is all getting a bit silly.

MasterTom you said you ‘feel’ that transwomen are female so how can excluding them be misandrist?

Unless you’ve changed your mind since leaving the other thread?

The quote is correct though.

Men are an inherent risk to women. All men, every man. It doesn't matter what the individual male is like, as a man he is inherently dangerous to women.

Women won't know by looking which man is not a dangerous individual. So no matter if the man is gay, professionally celibate, married, perfectly pleasant in social situations... he carries the potential to be dangerous to the women around him.

Yes, even my DH. I know he is no danger to any woman, because I have known him for so long. But no other woman can have that confidence in him (and it is never impossible that I am wrong about him...).

Misandry? Is that the same as having academic understanding of human physiology? Crime statistics? Male hegemony?

No... Didn't think so!