Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Science of sexed brains - where do I get a good picture?

25 replies

teawamutu · 15/02/2020 09:17

I think it might be the new TRA script because I've come across it more and more recently: science shows similarities between TG brains and those of the sex they wish/claim to be.

From what I've seen this isn't settled science, bit does anyone have a good recent overview? Want to make sure (a) I've got some links to share to show not settled and (b) of there actually have been new discoveries that I'm not just dismissing out of hand.

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 15/02/2020 09:20

Ginna Rippon.

Ignore all marine biologists.

teawamutu · 15/02/2020 09:22

Have her book. Was wondering if there's a meta review anywhere or anything? Anything that shows where the weight of the evidence is or the most reliable studies are.

OP posts:
Mockersisrightasusual · 15/02/2020 09:29

Ignore all marine biologists.

...And carrot-haired TV Science Cuties in little strappy vests.

NatyoCheese · 15/02/2020 09:32

I think they’re referring to these studies, which did show that transgender people’s brains presented similarly to those of their desired sex -
www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0056/ea0056s30.3.htm
Some Transgender people weren’t happy with the study as it meant more ‘hoops to jump through’ with testing but it did show that there were some differences within the brain. More research needed, for something so huge I’m always surprised at the lack of research that has been done.

Lweji · 15/02/2020 09:36

I haven't seen the studies properly but look for:
Sample size
Sample bias
Control bias
Potential for manipulation of results
Potential for selection of results
Question bias

Then you have this:
If you think you're a woman because you like, say, ballet, then your brain is more likely to react to ballet like most woman who have been conditioned to view ballet favourably, and less like men who've grown conditioned to dislike ballet in favour of sports.

I'm very wary of such studies.

ArranUpsideDown · 15/02/2020 12:00

Look for work involving Sophie Scott (neuroscientist). I know DJLippy will soon have an interview with her on Make More Noise

Aesopfable · 15/02/2020 12:07

‘More similar’ but not the same. Also, if I remember correctly all they were actually looking at was the affect of Triptorelin on the brain as the group with gender dysphoria were all taking this - hence finding no difference in the pretreatment (prepubertal) group.

wellbehavedwomen · 15/02/2020 14:50

There's a really interesting article on differences on male and female brains which was written last year by Cordelia Fine, Daphna Joel and Gina Rippon. It's not about transgender people at all, but if reading research around brain and sex, it's possibly helpful to know what the baseline evidence is.

Here.

midgebabe · 15/02/2020 15:02

I thought that they had shown similarities in the brains of the post transition ( gender dysmorphia ) trans people In one study and with people who have experienced certain traumas in another study ?

( the gender dysmorphia used to be a mental condition that you had to have to be considered as trans . That no longer applies )

Given we can't "sex" a brain not sure how you can have a female brain baseline to be more or less like?

BlueHarry · 15/02/2020 15:21

I remember 2015-16, there was a study that got a fair amount of press for showing that trans people have brains similar to the sex that they identify as, but the man who carried out the study said that, that was a simplistic take of it. He said it showed that trans people do not have a "male" or "female brain", but a uniquely "transsexual brain" and that because behaviour and experience shape the brain anatomy we cannot say whether these differences are inborn. Guillamon I think was his name.

I also think there is some difficulty with these studies as the definition of trans is so broad nowadays, and I'm not sure whether the studies are looking at everyone who falls under trans because of self id, or are they looking at the kind of people who have traditionally been described as transsexual

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2020 15:32

Some good discussion on this thread (and others). Former poster BowlofBabelfish was particularly good on this issue. There is no convincing evidence for "female brain in man's body" theory.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3196135-Scientists-please-gather-round

BlueHarry · 15/02/2020 15:34

Another thing I also think about studies claiming to show sex differences in the brain, is that the scientist's carrying out the studies are inside our world, and so they're looking at things through that light with their own biases and so on. And all their subjects and case studies are inside that world too. It can never be entirely objective no matter what, we are all brought up and living in this heavily gendered environment. Like who decides which things count as male and female, and what are they basing this on. I am not an academic so I hope what I'm saying makes sense. I know what I mean but not so much how to say it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2020 15:39

Most of these studies are talking about minor differences in brain structure. There is no ladybrain.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2020 15:40

And YY Blueharry I know what you mean!

AnyOldSpartabix · 15/02/2020 16:13

This has taken ages, apologies if lots of other people have said the same in the meantime...

I would add specifically confounders to Lweji’s bias.

There might be other factors linking the groups. For example, if they looked at the brains of young transitioners, many of them might be homosexual.

It has also been pointed out that some of the changes resemble the changes in the brains of people who are clinically depressed. So if being trans and being depressed tend to go hand in hand, the brain differences might be due to depression, not ‘transness’.

If the subjects have transitioned, and that included hormone treatment, then there may be changes related to that, rather than the changes being the cause of the ‘transness’. Excessive rumination is another suggestion.

Apologies for the word ‘transness’. There’s probably a better word, but trans status isn’t exactly what I mean, and I can’t say gender dysphoria, as that’s no longer necessarily linked.

My understanding is, that despite the studies they’ve carried out, they still cannot definitively tell from an MRI whether a brain is male or female. So until they can (which may be never, in the same way you can’t look at height or shoe size and definitively tell if the person is male or female) I’d take any such ‘evidence’ with more than a grain of salt.

A brain in a male body is a male brain, and the thoughts are male thoughts, whatever structure it has, and regardless of whether the thoughts are considered traditionally masculine or not.

GrumpyGran8 · 15/02/2020 21:26

Even TRAs are wary of these MRI studies that appear to show gendered brain differences. For instance, the writer of this article complains that the researchers didn't look at the brains of non-binary or gender-fluid people as well. Also, some trans people might not be able to pass the "brain test" so would be denied validation:
Because trans people have a lot of trauma related to denial of access to those interventions, the nightmare scenario of people being shut out of treatment because a brain scan “proves” they don’t have GD is a live concern.....the legitimacy of trans identities cannot hinge on whether trans brains look like cis brains.
And also:
While I agree that the early medical intervention and support for children who suffer from GD is always best, it is deeply worrisome that we should be looking to a wildly expensive and inaccessible MRI for an “objective” diagnosis of GD when the much more human thing would be to ask kids themselves. It’s likely that young children (and probably many adults) are unable to articulate what gender dysphoria “feels like” but surely it also cannot be reduced to a physiological measure either.

So basically, it's still "never mind what the science says, we're trans if we say so."

CharlieParley · 15/02/2020 23:16

The particular study linked to by NatyoCheese was a paper presented at conference which made big claims based on tiny differences.

The number one issue is that when you look closely at the measured differences what you will typically find is not that the measurements of males who have been diagnosed with and treated for GD are the same as those of females in general. Instead they deviate from the measurements of males in general in the direction of measurements obtained from females.

That's a whole universe away from the claim that the brains of males who identify as trans have been shown to be similar to, let alone the same as those of females.

Furthermore, we're looking at an extremely small number of measurements in an amazingly complex system that could deliver many thousands of measurements. So there's a lot of wishful thinking in play when these claims are made. Understandably so - gender dysphoria can be an incredibly distressing condition with life-limiting consequences for its sufferers. I'd want to know, too, what had caused me to suffer so much.

One of the few things that seems to be supported by neuroscience, is that some measurements of some brain structures/functions and/or responses of homosexuals show similarities to the opposite sex.

But this paper seems to make no mention of sexuality. As pre-adolescent children diagnosed with GD often turn out to be homosexual, only a long-term follow up would allow us to see if the measured differences are anything to do with GD at all. If any such paper doesn't correct for sexuality, I would want to know why.

There's also the problem that our brains are plastic - they change constantly. Our brains respond to whatever life throws at us by changing and adapting in a number of ways. Are we measuring differences because the brains of these individuals are being reshaped by particularly strongly stereotypical pursuits and behaviours associated with the opposite sex?

And drawing conclusions from the brain scans of small children about GD is particularly fraught with problems - they change so rapidly that a rescan just months later may well show a different picture.

One recent interesting result of these studies has been a measured difference in the region of the brain coded for an individual's perception of themselves, including their body image. Those measurements in people diagnosed with GD were remarkably similar to people diagnosed with Body Dismorphic Disorder, suggesting that what underlies these conditions is a change in an individual's self-perception which then manifests in different ways.

However, it has so far been impossible to determine whether this measured difference is the cause or the result of the condition these individuals are diagnosed with.

More importantly, as the current minimum standard for trans inclusion is a verbal statement of identity, brain studies are not all that relevant to our fight. Few males identifying as trans have a diagnosis of GD, in light of which these studies seem quite irrelevant to the overall issue of including males who identify as trans in female-only provisions.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that males who identify as trans pose less risk to females than all other males. There is however evidence that males who identify as trans pose the exact same risk to females as all other males.

To date not one study has ever proven (or even looked at) whether these minute differences could possibly alter male pattern behaviour or male pattern sexuality to the point where these males are sufficiently different from the rest of their sex class that they pose less risk to females than all other males.

Which means that these studies are interesting for those seeking to explore and understand the causes of gender dysphoria. But for those of us seeking to defend women's sex-based rights, they are a distraction at best and a waste of time and energy at worst.

wellbehavedwomen · 16/02/2020 01:26

@midgebabe - yep, the article I linked comments:

For example, when some scientists suggest that men are superior at spatial processing because, unlike women, they only use one side of the brain, while other scientists suggest that men are superior at spatial processing because, unlike women, they employ both sides of the brain, it is clear that expectations are being led more by stereotypes than a scientific model of spatial processing in the brain (see, e.g., Fine 2010a).

AnyOldSpartabix · 16/02/2020 06:31

Thanks Charley for that explanation.

for those of us seeking to defend women's sex-based rights, they are a distraction at best and a waste of time and energy at worst.

The most shocking discovery I made is how far this has been used to promulgate the ‘born in the wrong body’ rhetoric within sections of the medical industry. Can’t remember what I read, but something probably from WPATH which seemed to go from the starting point that this was fixed and accepted science. It gave me pause as up until then, I had assumed that TRAs who said there was definitive scientific proof were deliberate nonsense, but this suggested that at some point it had been heavily pushed, way beyond what had really been ascertained.

NeurotrashWarrior · 16/02/2020 06:59

I think the original study, with a very small sample size and only looking at trans women, not comparing trans men with men, was debunked by its own authors (I think) as they realised the similarity was an area linked to trauma. (I think.)

Hollyhead · 16/02/2020 07:07

Cornelia Fine Delusions of Gender is a really good meta deconstruction of how society not sex creates gender.

NeurotrashWarrior · 16/02/2020 07:29

Fine and Rippon both demonstrate that we are so used to interpreting things through gender stereotypes, that it's really hard to not do this with papers. Once you master it, it's like the Matrix and you see it everywhere.

Gender stereotypes can sometimes have an impact on data because of the action of stereotypes.

Looking at how stereotypes can affect education outcomes demonstrates this. Eg very few boys are taking the arts at gcse and a level and few girls are taking computer sciences. There's been research showing how the toys children play with directly affect outcomes in maths for example. Arts and crafts kits are sometimes deliberately marketed at girls. Lego friends has been shown to be less challenging to make than the rest of the Lego themes.

A girl demonstrating more boisterous behaviour or a boy who is very loving and kind and likes to play in the home corner can then be a victim of stereotypes.

There are sex differences, for example, there are certainly always more boys in SEN schools (roughly 15% girls in my own SEN school) but it's important not to stereotype this data and then make claims that anyone operating outside the data is "wrong" and needs to be fixed/ trans. If that makes sense.

Booboostwo · 16/02/2020 07:55

Cordelia Fine does a great job of debunking the male/female brain idea in the first place and has a lot of references you can look up. Both "Delusions of gender" and "Testosterone Rex" are worth reading.

NeurotrashWarrior · 16/02/2020 07:58

This is a lengthy analysis and looks at a multifactorial approach to explaining GD, including issues with body perception, being gender non conforming and a few other aspects. Eg external stimuli, how you're treated for being 'different.' It mentions a range of comorbid conditions aswell.

It points out that there's anatomical incongruence between the sexes without GD.

368: Thus, anatomical incongruence (having a size/shape more like the opposite gender) in limited regions is typical in individuals without gender dysphoria and is not likely to be sufficient to cause gender dysphoria.

Basically, a brain scan cannot say you've got the wrong sex brain.

I'm not sure what the amendments to the article were in December.

https://www.eneuro.org/content/eneuro/early/2019/12/02/ENEURO.0183-19.2019.full.pdf

Socrates11 · 16/02/2020 11:36

BlueHarry if you haven't already read it you'll probably like the book 'Inferior' by Angela Saini, where she deals with the idea of objective science, and how scientists find it difficult to see their own bias.

Saini talks to Rippon about brains and basically every single one is different, a 'mosaic of difference' & put 500 brains in front of a scientist they have no accurate way of 'sexing' them.

A favourite quote of mine by the poet Coleridge, 1832 said 'The truth is, a great mind is androgynous'.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page