Visitors on post-natal wards - a feminist issue?

[JellySlice]

I have read so many threads posted by mums in post-natal wards where partners are allowed to stay overnight and excessive numbers of poorly-behaved visitors are allowed. The level of noise becomes disruptive, the lack of privacy is distressing and ridiculous demands are made of the midwives and auxiliaries.

Yet nobody is able to say or do anything about it. The midwives seem powerless to impose a standard of behaviour upon the visitors, or to evict those who abuse it. The mothers are reluctant to complain because they are sympathetic to the other women's need for companionship/love/help, but also why should they have to?

The reason I wonder whether this is a feminist issue is that the people suffering in this situation and struggling to take control of this situation are female (predominately female, in the case of the midwives).

Is 'Be Kind' socialisation backfiring on women again?

How can this be changed?

[MarchDaffs]

Who said anything about leaflets in the back of notes? It needs to be an active discussion between woman and care providers, with full information and no pushing of anything because the woman decides what her priorities are.

Also, reducing pressure on postnatal wards and redefining them as a place for the sick is not an inherent positive we need to be aiming for. It would be fine if all low risk women wanted epidurals and therefore required admission afterwards, just as it would be if they all gave birth at home. We need to be demanding adequate resources for the care women want, not trying to persuade them to give birth in the cheapest possible way because God forbid we need to pay for sufficient anaesthetists and postnatal midwives if they don't.

[Goosefoot]

Why are women being asked to sacrifice their feelings of dignity, privacy and safety, if not to permit men into the space?

Men are being asked to come into the space because many women want them there.

That is not about doing things because men are pushing for it, or men trying to get one over on women. It's about a difficulty accommodating the preferences of different women, or even of different families.

Just because something affects women doesn't mean that it is men doing it to them.

[Aureum]

women should sacrifice normal, regulated, legislated and compulsory privacy, dignity, consent and bodily autonomy, even when this is distressing and against their will, when this is inconvenient to the presence of males
It’s not just males who invade my privacy and dignity. Women can be strangers as well. Not all women are nice or safe to be around. I don’t want to breastfeed in front of other female patients, or be naked and undignified and covered in blood. That’s why I kept my curtains drawn - for privacy from EVERYONE, not just from males.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

Goose many women perceive unknown males as less comfortable or safe to be around, and are more embarrassed, anxious and uncomfortable than they would be around unknown females.

I'm not blaming the entire male race for this, I'm sorry you feel it's mean to men, but this is the truth and the reason why mixed sex spaces are unfair. There are reasons why females don't feel safe or secure in vulnerable situations around unknown males, this is a fact, and if that's hurtful to males or to females who feel the need to stand up for males then they frankly need to give their heads a wobble.

[KimikosDreamHouse]

Michelleoftheresistance

I think you are missing the point. It's probably more likely that it is the female partner who is pushing for her male partner to be there.

[MarchDaffs]

Men are being asked to come into the space because many women want them there.

That's perhaps one reason. It is however also the case that there have been significant cuts to staffing on postnatal wards and this is one way of plugging some of the gaps. Perhaps even justifying them since hey, dads have the right to bond with their babies too and in various dinky surveys asking women if they wanted their partners there but carefully not asking if they were happy with the presence of other people's, the women said they did. It's an expedient preference, if you're looking to save money. In a way that some of the things women might also want, such as more scans than the NHS typically offer, are not. Worth thinking critically about whether that had anything to do with it.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

How am I missing the point? (Honest question)

The point I'm making is that while female partners are pushing for their own male partner to be there overnight, there are clearly other female patients who are very unhappy with this. Because they cannot feel safe or comfortable with multiple unknown males in a room where they are vulnerable. That this is good for the female who wants the male there does not make him any less threatening to the female in the next bed who doesn't want males in the ward overnight.

[MarchDaffs]

There's also the context in which some women are pushing for this. It's happening in a situation where there is inadequate funding for postnatal care, so lots of women think they will/did need a partner there to look after them. Not all of them would think that if there were sufficient clinical staff available. The inadequacy is a feminist issue.

[KimikosDreamHouse]

How am I missing the point? (Honest question)

You were going on about being mean to men
"hurtful to males or to females who feel the need to stand up for males then they frankly need to give their heads a wobble"

That to me completely misses the point. This doesn't strike me as anything men particularly wanted or are demanding. It has nothing to do with standing up for men. This is about women wanting different things. Men can be blamed for a lot, but this isn't one.

[MarchDaffs]

It's a mixed bag, I think. There are quite clearly some men who feel entitled to be on maternity wards, and in the very worst case scenarios are there to continue their control and abuse of their partners. Others are there because they've been asked to, feel it's expected or want to protect/provide care for their partner and baby and wouldn't choose to do so otherwise.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

This doesn't strike me as anything men particularly wanted or are demanding.

This is a part of it, with some of the stress on the situation being caused by the expectations and behaviours of male partners, for example the one last week in the papers who wanted to be able to walk around bare legged in a nightshirt on the ward and was very cross about having his personal privacy infringed when nurses asked him to get dressed. There's a lot of evidence around on various threads all over MN.

Yes, this is about some women wanting their partners with them overnight. This is also about some women not wanting to be on a ward at night in a very vulnerable state with a number of strange males, regardless of whether they're showing wholly appropriate social behaviour or not. This is also about growing expectations of men being present 24/7 on a ward for several reasons including valuing the father's role and rights to be with their child, the need of women to have someone with them because of inadequate care and staffing and so on. The issue stays the same about is this in the best interests of the women who are the patients.

[MarchDaffs]

Yes, Mr Nighshirt was a pretty classic example of the way males centre themselves and their wishes in spaces that aren't about them.

[JellySlice]

Do visitors behave like this on other wards?

[Aesopfable]

I didn’t want my partner on my postnatal ward. I was there because of me and the baby and I wanted to focus on us. BUT if there were several partners of other Mums on the ward then I absolutely would want my partner there as I would no longer feel safe and comfortable on my own. I might also have discharged myself against medical advice in order to regain some privacy.

[Aesopfable]

(I was pleased for him to be there at visiting time)

[MarchDaffs]

This is it aesop, I'm against it but if I were going to be forced to be up close and personal with unknown males postpartum, my partner would've had to be there too. Meanwhile all those women who don't have anyone available are disadvantaged.

[Goosefoot]

many women perceive unknown males as less comfortable or safe to be around, and are more embarrassed, anxious and uncomfortable than they would be around unknown females.
I'm not blaming the entire male race for this, I'm sorry you feel it's mean to men, but this is the truth and the reason why mixed sex spaces are unfair. There are reasons why females don't feel safe or secure in vulnerable situations around unknown males, this is a fact, and if that's hurtful to males or to females who feel the need to stand up for males then they frankly need to give their heads a wobble.

Yes, I know women don't like it, I wouldn't like it either.

That doesn't mean it's "centering men" though, or acquiescing to their demands that is the motivation. It means a mixes sex space with unrelated people/strangers is a problem, when you typically have both parents wanting to be together with their newborn.

I think the issue about lack of care is a bit of a red herring, it's a problem, but not one that admitting men was designed to solve. Men began to be admitted to childbirth, and then the period after childbirth, because couples wanted it and it came to be seen as the best model for family centred care. There were plenty of doctors and nurses who didn't want it, and men for that matter, my impression has always been that it was more demanded by women.

It doesn't work well though with traditional wards. And I think we can also ask other reasonable questions about these problems. Nursing staff have a lot less authority over behaviour and guuests than they used to, and you get some pretty bad behaviour from both male and female visitors. Obviously some patients will not be easy ones, but even there, I think many people have a sense of entitlement to use services while acting like asses.

Also, what we should expect in state health service, is what we want always what we should expect? When this system was first designed it was very much a matter of people were very happy to have access to a hospital, for free, that had pretty good standards of care. Maybe you had a bed on a ward with a lot of other patients but that was far better than no care at all. People were pretty proud of nationalised health services in most countries they began with. But costs have skyrocketed in so any was as more has become possible, standards increased.

Those are in some ways unanswerable questions, but to me they can't easily be separated from a question like, can we build family rooms for people having babies in hospital, if we really think that is the best model of care.

[KimikosDreamHouse]

There were plenty of doctors and nurses who didn't want it, and men for that matter, my impression has always been that it was more demanded by women

I didn't want my husband to be present at the birth. I didn't want any "birthing partner" there. I didn't want anyone there but trained medical staff- whether they were male or female was irrelevant - but my goodness did that go against the grain of what was normal and expected.

It isn't men who are to blame for the situation of men being on wards. The push for this came from women.

[PermanentTemporary]

I think there is a feminist strand to this issue as other posters say but much more of an issue is the clash of an intensely individualist/nuclear couple focus in society with the communal space model of institutions set up in a less individualist/less rich society. We are just not used to accommodating communal needs any more. My mother was shocked when I went to university that we all had locks on our room doors - in her day in the 1950s the idea that you would shut out your fellow college members was anathema to her (also she was in an all-female institution, and obviously crime rates were lower, and there was less to steal, etc etc).

It is absolutely true that it is safer where staffing is lower to have open ward spaces without curtains drawn around the beds so that a fewer number of staff can see more patients at a glance. However, when more women gave birth in hospital, breastfeeding rates became lower - I don't know if there was any correlation. The private space that makes breastfeeding easier was certainly harder to access. (TBF my mother gave birth to one of us in hospital and two of us at home and bottle-fed us all after two traumatic weeks of breastfeeding with the first, though that was the hospital birth).

[MarchDaffs]

Those are in some ways unanswerable questions, but to me they can't easily be separated from a question like, can we build family rooms for people having babies in hospital, if we really think that is the best model of care.

The interesting thing is that we have built them in a lot of FMLUs. Ironically, a number of them are underused: the provision is a tad optimistic given that they only cater to the lowest risk women and our birthing population are getting older, fatter and increasingly likely to have a comorbidity. But the funds have evidently been there to supply them at least sometimes.

[Fifthtimelucky]

I was lucky that this wasn't an issue for me with either of my births.

With the first I had asked for a private room if one was available and luckily it was (obviously had to pay). My husband didn't stay the night but I wasn't disturbed by anyone else's or kept awake at night by anyone's baby but my own. The only disadvantage was that it was awkward going to the loo or having a shower because I didn't want to leave my baby alone so had to take her with me to the bathroom. I don't remember what's happened about food. I suppose I must have had some, given that I was in for 24 hours after giving birth, but I don't remember how I got it!

I had the second one at home and I'd definitely recommend that unless there are medical reasons not to.

[TakingtheLeap]

I find this such a tricky topic. My personal position is that the ideal situation would be private rooms and sufficient staff to monitor them.

When I gave birth, I was the one who desperately wanted my husband with me when I stayed overnight. In the end I was transferred back from the ward to a private room in the MLU, where I was monitored just as well as I would have been in the ward. In theory I completely agree that my husband shouldn't invade other's privacy, but at that immensely vulnerable moment I was willing to self-discharge after a haemmorage to ensure I wasn't left alone with my baby in that place.

The thing I thing maternity care needs to acknowledge is that postpartum women are different from other patients - they are also new mothers and what happens in those early hours can have a huge impact on bonding and mental health. Postpartum care should be set up to ensure they are given what they need not just to be healthy but to also have a good start to their new relationship with their babies - whether that involves privacy, care from nurses, or the company of their partners.

[Toria70]

A friend is a midwife, and has some quite upsetting stories about vulnerable women with abusive partners who are "guarded" 24/7 to make sure that they don't get chance to speak out.

By eroding these safe female spaces, we are letting these vulnerable women down.

[RiddleyW]

Do visitors behave like this on other wards?

I’ve been in hospital twice. Once after I had DS (it was a home birth but then admitted for two days) and once recently where I spent seven nights on a general surgery ward.

The latter was much worse in terms of privacy, disruption from visitors and general care. I kept having to go to stuff (scans, to see the surgeon and so on) and just missing meals and nobody could get me food once the service had finished. The ward was mixed sex, with men wandering “accidentally” into the women’s bay all night. There was a male prison officer keeping an eye on a very young woman who’d attempted suicide in prison. He spent all night sitting directly opposite my bed.

This isn’t at all to say it can’t be equally shite in post natal wards but it’s not a given. A couple of posters up thread said things along the lines of nobody in a normal ward having to look after themselves so much. I’d respectfully suggest those people have not spent much time in hospital.

[RiddleyW]

Sorry should add I’m not saying things shouldn’t be improved massively but it probably does make a difference in approach if maybe it’s a women in hospital problem rather than a maternity ward problem.