Visitors on post-natal wards - a feminist issue?

[JellySlice]

I have read so many threads posted by mums in post-natal wards where partners are allowed to stay overnight and excessive numbers of poorly-behaved visitors are allowed. The level of noise becomes disruptive, the lack of privacy is distressing and ridiculous demands are made of the midwives and auxiliaries.

Yet nobody is able to say or do anything about it. The midwives seem powerless to impose a standard of behaviour upon the visitors, or to evict those who abuse it. The mothers are reluctant to complain because they are sympathetic to the other women's need for companionship/love/help, but also why should they have to?

The reason I wonder whether this is a feminist issue is that the people suffering in this situation and struggling to take control of this situation are female (predominately female, in the case of the midwives).

Is 'Be Kind' socialisation backfiring on women again?

How can this be changed?

[MarchDaffs]

There are lots of instances where it's happened yes. A number of accounts of it on here. You mention clots: on one of these threads a while ago, there was a woman who had left clots in the loo to go and find a midwife to show who was then spoken to abusively about it by a male who wanted to use it.

They use showers and washing facilities too, which if anything is more inevitable. After all, hospitals all have toilet facilities for those who aren't inpatients, so there is at least the option not to use the patient loos for those visitors who want it. But they don't all have showers for visitors. And if you allow people to stay over, they are going to use the washing facilities, especially if they're there over a number of days.

[Aesopfable]

Do the husbands/partners/random relatives expect to use the patients toilets etc too? Remembering that this is NOT the same as unisex toilets at other times. Women are passing lochia. Sometimes the passage of this, eg. Lots of clots, can indicate serious problems like retain placenta pieces. I remember women not flushing the toilet so the midwife could go and look. That is aside from the issue is just taking care of the large about if blood and discharge, maternity pads etc.

[MarchDaffs]

People comparing the situation on maternity wards to other adult wards are missing the point that there is a baby there.

No, they've just correctly identified that the presence of babies doesn't mean the adult patients present lose their right to be cared for without having to share sleeping and washing facilities with those of the opposite sex.

We should indeed be campaigning for appropriately private spaces post birth, but meanwhile wards still exist. So even if we begin an immediate move to make all postnatal facilities private rooms, while we complete this process there will still be women on wards.

[AnxietyDream]

People comparing the situation on maternity wards to other adult wards are missing the point that there is a baby there.

In my hospital all children's wards have provision for one parent to stay at all times. (And nobody is insisting that children with a parent available are denied it to be equal with those children whose parents can't stay).

In the five days I was in hospital after giving birth I was too ill to look after my baby, but they did need to be near me for breastfeeding so couldn't be taken home. The proper person to care for that baby in my opinion was the fit and healthy parent. I don't agree that I should have been forced to have my newborn taken care of by a bunch of unknown staff in hospital, against both parents consent, which would have been the result of making my husband leave. (We got a private room thankfully, so I never had to choose between my health, breastfeeding, or having my child be left barely cared for by overworked staff - but no woman should).

Babies need 24 hour care in the first days of life. It's not appropriate to kick out their caregiver for the night, or to expect women who should be recovering to also do care duties.

We should be campaigning for appropriately private spaces for women post birth. I don't know anyone who wants to be breastfeeding and bleeding in a room with a bunch of strangers (male or female)
We should be providing adequate medical staff for women (husband should not be needed for this, as on other adult wards) but babies should be cared for by whoever those with parental responsibility choose.

[EuroMillionsWinner]

There's a parallel thread running in Active right now from a new mum who's in a post-natal ward that allows overnight visitors and it makes for very sobering reading.

[FlightyEmu]

It’s a hospital. People are there because they need medical care. If they don’t, then they can be discharged ( & I’ve known many women discharged straight from labour & delivery). Therefore if they’re on the post-natal ward, there’s a reason for that. Visitors should be restricted, for the well-being of all. So that patients have time to rest, recover, and have any treatment necessary, in a safe and calm environment. If there aren’t the staff available to provide this, then that’s the solution - more staff.

[Gronky]

Given that it seems like a partner being present is almost always at the request of the mother could a potential solution which preserves female autonomy in both cases be to split the wards into family and solitary?

After a few ad-hoc requests were denied, I pushed for my workplace to allow for friends (both female and male) of new mothers to leave during working hours with no penalty to visit them on the ward. It was extremely well received by those who wanted it (just less than half) and the primary sentiment is that it helps enormously with the sense of isolation, particularly in families from cultures where the raising of a child is a community endeavour.

[ChipsyChopsy]

A recent episode of Call the Midwife featured the start of men being allowed at the birth of their children. One of the midwives said something along the lines of 'we run the risk of putting men at the centre of childbirth, it's not right'.

[GinUnicorn]

I don’t see why partners couldn’t visit all day but nighttime day 9pm-7am isn’t patient only. Just makes so much more sense to me

[MarchDaffs]

Well the issue of partners staying doesn't typically arise in other hospital wards does it? I know there are some exceptions to that, palliative care etc, but for the most part it does apply to other comparable services.

[Goosefoot]

A friend is a midwife, and has some quite upsetting stories about vulnerable women with abusive partners who are "guarded" 24/7 to make sure that they don't get chance to speak out.

But what's the suggestion here? Because some men are abusive, those in good relationships shouldn't be able to stay with their spouse? Would that apply all through medical services? Many people want or even need the help of a partner.

[RiddleyW]

Sorry should add I’m not saying things shouldn’t be improved massively but it probably does make a difference in approach if maybe it’s a women in hospital problem rather than a maternity ward problem.

[RiddleyW]

Do visitors behave like this on other wards?

I’ve been in hospital twice. Once after I had DS (it was a home birth but then admitted for two days) and once recently where I spent seven nights on a general surgery ward.

The latter was much worse in terms of privacy, disruption from visitors and general care. I kept having to go to stuff (scans, to see the surgeon and so on) and just missing meals and nobody could get me food once the service had finished. The ward was mixed sex, with men wandering “accidentally” into the women’s bay all night. There was a male prison officer keeping an eye on a very young woman who’d attempted suicide in prison. He spent all night sitting directly opposite my bed.

This isn’t at all to say it can’t be equally shite in post natal wards but it’s not a given. A couple of posters up thread said things along the lines of nobody in a normal ward having to look after themselves so much. I’d respectfully suggest those people have not spent much time in hospital.

[Toria70]

A friend is a midwife, and has some quite upsetting stories about vulnerable women with abusive partners who are "guarded" 24/7 to make sure that they don't get chance to speak out.

By eroding these safe female spaces, we are letting these vulnerable women down.

[TakingtheLeap]

I find this such a tricky topic. My personal position is that the ideal situation would be private rooms and sufficient staff to monitor them.

When I gave birth, I was the one who desperately wanted my husband with me when I stayed overnight. In the end I was transferred back from the ward to a private room in the MLU, where I was monitored just as well as I would have been in the ward. In theory I completely agree that my husband shouldn't invade other's privacy, but at that immensely vulnerable moment I was willing to self-discharge after a haemmorage to ensure I wasn't left alone with my baby in that place.

The thing I thing maternity care needs to acknowledge is that postpartum women are different from other patients - they are also new mothers and what happens in those early hours can have a huge impact on bonding and mental health. Postpartum care should be set up to ensure they are given what they need not just to be healthy but to also have a good start to their new relationship with their babies - whether that involves privacy, care from nurses, or the company of their partners.

[Fifthtimelucky]

I was lucky that this wasn't an issue for me with either of my births.

With the first I had asked for a private room if one was available and luckily it was (obviously had to pay). My husband didn't stay the night but I wasn't disturbed by anyone else's or kept awake at night by anyone's baby but my own. The only disadvantage was that it was awkward going to the loo or having a shower because I didn't want to leave my baby alone so had to take her with me to the bathroom. I don't remember what's happened about food. I suppose I must have had some, given that I was in for 24 hours after giving birth, but I don't remember how I got it!

I had the second one at home and I'd definitely recommend that unless there are medical reasons not to.

[MarchDaffs]

Those are in some ways unanswerable questions, but to me they can't easily be separated from a question like, can we build family rooms for people having babies in hospital, if we really think that is the best model of care.

The interesting thing is that we have built them in a lot of FMLUs. Ironically, a number of them are underused: the provision is a tad optimistic given that they only cater to the lowest risk women and our birthing population are getting older, fatter and increasingly likely to have a comorbidity. But the funds have evidently been there to supply them at least sometimes.

[PermanentTemporary]

I think there is a feminist strand to this issue as other posters say but much more of an issue is the clash of an intensely individualist/nuclear couple focus in society with the communal space model of institutions set up in a less individualist/less rich society. We are just not used to accommodating communal needs any more. My mother was shocked when I went to university that we all had locks on our room doors - in her day in the 1950s the idea that you would shut out your fellow college members was anathema to her (also she was in an all-female institution, and obviously crime rates were lower, and there was less to steal, etc etc).

It is absolutely true that it is safer where staffing is lower to have open ward spaces without curtains drawn around the beds so that a fewer number of staff can see more patients at a glance. However, when more women gave birth in hospital, breastfeeding rates became lower - I don't know if there was any correlation. The private space that makes breastfeeding easier was certainly harder to access. (TBF my mother gave birth to one of us in hospital and two of us at home and bottle-fed us all after two traumatic weeks of breastfeeding with the first, though that was the hospital birth).

[KimikosDreamHouse]

There were plenty of doctors and nurses who didn't want it, and men for that matter, my impression has always been that it was more demanded by women

I didn't want my husband to be present at the birth. I didn't want any "birthing partner" there. I didn't want anyone there but trained medical staff- whether they were male or female was irrelevant - but my goodness did that go against the grain of what was normal and expected.

It isn't men who are to blame for the situation of men being on wards. The push for this came from women.

[Goosefoot]

many women perceive unknown males as less comfortable or safe to be around, and are more embarrassed, anxious and uncomfortable than they would be around unknown females.
I'm not blaming the entire male race for this, I'm sorry you feel it's mean to men, but this is the truth and the reason why mixed sex spaces are unfair. There are reasons why females don't feel safe or secure in vulnerable situations around unknown males, this is a fact, and if that's hurtful to males or to females who feel the need to stand up for males then they frankly need to give their heads a wobble.

Yes, I know women don't like it, I wouldn't like it either.

That doesn't mean it's "centering men" though, or acquiescing to their demands that is the motivation. It means a mixes sex space with unrelated people/strangers is a problem, when you typically have both parents wanting to be together with their newborn.

I think the issue about lack of care is a bit of a red herring, it's a problem, but not one that admitting men was designed to solve. Men began to be admitted to childbirth, and then the period after childbirth, because couples wanted it and it came to be seen as the best model for family centred care. There were plenty of doctors and nurses who didn't want it, and men for that matter, my impression has always been that it was more demanded by women.

It doesn't work well though with traditional wards. And I think we can also ask other reasonable questions about these problems. Nursing staff have a lot less authority over behaviour and guuests than they used to, and you get some pretty bad behaviour from both male and female visitors. Obviously some patients will not be easy ones, but even there, I think many people have a sense of entitlement to use services while acting like asses.

Also, what we should expect in state health service, is what we want always what we should expect? When this system was first designed it was very much a matter of people were very happy to have access to a hospital, for free, that had pretty good standards of care. Maybe you had a bed on a ward with a lot of other patients but that was far better than no care at all. People were pretty proud of nationalised health services in most countries they began with. But costs have skyrocketed in so any was as more has become possible, standards increased.

Those are in some ways unanswerable questions, but to me they can't easily be separated from a question like, can we build family rooms for people having babies in hospital, if we really think that is the best model of care.

[MarchDaffs]

This is it aesop, I'm against it but if I were going to be forced to be up close and personal with unknown males postpartum, my partner would've had to be there too. Meanwhile all those women who don't have anyone available are disadvantaged.

[Aesopfable]

(I was pleased for him to be there at visiting time)

[Aesopfable]

I didn’t want my partner on my postnatal ward. I was there because of me and the baby and I wanted to focus on us. BUT if there were several partners of other Mums on the ward then I absolutely would want my partner there as I would no longer feel safe and comfortable on my own. I might also have discharged myself against medical advice in order to regain some privacy.

[JellySlice]

Do visitors behave like this on other wards?

[MarchDaffs]

Yes, Mr Nighshirt was a pretty classic example of the way males centre themselves and their wishes in spaces that aren't about them.