14.02.20 Live updates on Harry and Kate’s cases HERE

[MrsSnippyPants]

I shall be glued to social media this morning and thought it might be useful to have a place where we can post updates as they come in so people need to follow just one thread.
Please post Twitter handles of anyone providing live updates as you find them.
@WeAreFairCop are saying it is likely the judgement will NOT be read out so they hope to get a copy and summarise and tweet after 10.30am

The evidence of Professor Stock shows that the Claimant is far from alone in a debate which is complex and multi-faceted. Mrs B profoundly disagrees with his views, but such is the nature of free speech in a democracy. Professor Stock's evidence demonstrates how quickly some involved in the transgender debate are prepared to accuse others with whom they disagree of showing hatred, or as being transphobic when they are not, but simply hold a different view

^In his treatise On Liberty John Stuart Mill wrote "If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion,
mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind^

Professor Stock’s evidence demonstrates how quickly some involved in the transgender debate are prepared to accuse others with whom they disagree of showing hatred, or as being transphobic when they are not, but simply hold a different view.

I may be being a bit dim here, but doesn't the outcome of the 2 cases contradict each other?

No because the two cases are completely different from each other

But you can still get a mark on your DBS if anyone decides to report you to the police on the basis of no evidence whatsoever.

THAT is the issue.

I'm not finding this judgement reassuring.

One case is "you should not set out to annoy people on the Internet".

The other case is "should the College of Policing tell the police to automatically record incidents, without any assessment, that are not crimes and don't involve hate, and, also, were the Police very heavy-handed towards Harry Miller?"

They relate to different matters.

One is a case of someone making their opinions known to no one in particular, a crowd of followers, the other is targeted.

There's the basic difference.

I'm confused having read the FC tweets.

Humberside police seem to be acting as though it's a partial win for them - because NCHC are lawful.

But the Judge says it's a win for Harry - and awards costs to Harry (great )

So - has Harry still got a NCHC against his name or not? Humberside seem to think they're keeping it, but Judge said they had to put something about the Judgement in there? How is this a win for Harry if the NCHC still recorded?

Lots on this on BBC News - but they don't seem to be reporting what's in Fair Cop's tweets, or the Judgement

Of course, this could lead to a delightful game of counter-accusing, where those who see transphobia everywhere are in turn attacked for disability hate or race hate etc (as the College of Policing assure us earnestly the massive overreach of the law applies to everyone, not just transpeople).

Though of course that only works if the law really is applied equally to all groups, which is about as likely as a very unlikely thing...

has Harry still got a NCHC against his name or not?

I believe he has but the judge said that because the tweets are declared to be lawful then this declaration nullifies the record and so things are fine, even though it could damage Miller's employment prospects.

It is a very unsatisfactory outcome.

Plus - it seems that all this judgement does is exonerate Harry. But the police could still record NCHC against anyone else - all that needs to happen is a trans person takes offence and reports it?

nauticant
Yes. The hate crime part I think underestimates the serious impact of this.

She did not contact the claimant. She had BLOCKED the claimant.

Very concerning judges deciding these things who do not understand how Twitter works.

Destinysdaughter

I can see how it looks like that. But my understanding is that Kate's case was based on the perception that she was harassing an individual (goaded beyond endurance in my opinion). And it was on the harassment basis, rather than the content of what she was saying, that she was arrested.

Harry was not referring to anyone individually. He was talking generally. And the judge even said that he wasn't speaking to anyone in the trans community, he was speaking to his followers.

Humberside police seem to be acting as though it's a partial win for them - because NCHC are lawful

Two statements made by the judge (apart from the others already quoted here) seem pertinent:

"For the reasons I have given there was no rational basis on which PC Gul could have believed that there was any risk of the Claimant committing a criminal offence. There was accordingly no need for him to visit the Claimant’s workplace and then warn him about the danger of being prosecuted if he escalated. Nor was there any need for ACC Young and Acting Inspector Wilson to say the same thing"

and

"In his statement PC Gul accepts that one option that was open to him was to take no further action. They could also have advised Mrs B not to read any subsequent tweets. Both of those things would have served the objectives in question."

The College's guidance is lawful, and what Harry said was fine. Humberside Police massively overreached in what they did in response.

And the judge even said that he wasn't speaking to anyone in the trans community, he was speaking to his followers

Yes. And that Mrs B voluntarily chose to read the tweets and that the police accepted her assessment of them without any critical analysis to ascertain any evidence of 'hate'

So - has Harry still got a NCHC against his name or not? Humberside seem to think they're keeping it, but Judge said they had to put something about the Judgement in there? How is this a win for Harry if the NCHC still recorded?

Apparently, recording it as a non-crime hate crime, is lawful. (Which is why Harry is going up to the Supreme Court, to have this addressed).

It was the subsequent actions of the police that were unlawful.

Harrys side want that to be added to his 'record', to show that he was targeted. Because it does look bad, in context.

The police said it shouldn't be added, because up until the point where PC Gul took leave of his senses, it was all fine.

It's obviously an entirely unsatisfactory process from start to finish. Which is why Harry is going up the food chain.

It's laughably open to exploitation and needs firming up left, right and centre.

Has Harry made a statement? Does anyone have a link?

So, given that misogyny is not a hate crime, can non-crime hate incidents be recorded? I.e. could a pattern of hate incidents be shown to lead to a criminal offence, even if that offence is not categorised as a "hate crime"?

It's laughably open to exploitation and needs firming up left, right and centre

Agree.

Yes. And that Mrs B voluntarily chose to read the tweets and that the police accepted her assessment of them without any critical analysis to ascertain any evidence of 'hate'

There never is any evidence of hate. The statements, always, from start to finish just bang on and on about how oppressed and vulnerable trans people are. It's not a legal argument. In any way. Even if you agree with it, which I don't.

The judge appears to have left us with a situation where the recording of hundreds of thousands of noncrime hate incidents can continue unchecked, and continue to blight people's 'criminal records' and affect employment opportunities.
But if individuals have the financial means to challenge their own NCHI through the courts, then the judge may rule it was misapplied in your personal circumstances.

I hope this gets challenged further. Nothing much has changed for everyone else - the College of Policing guidelines on NCHI remain intact.
Harry's situation is still perfectly replicable for all of us, and our recourse would by necessity have to be the courts, just as his was. Each and every time.

I'm feeling very mixed about all this. Horror for Kate, relief for Harry, but continuing fear for all of us.