Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Canadian judge: it's not rape if you keep the baby

21 replies

polarisation · 11/02/2020 20:19

What the fuck, Canada.

globalnews.ca/news/6511289/irb-rape-never-happened/

OP posts:
polarisation · 11/02/2020 20:19

globalnews.ca/news/6511289/irb-rape-never-happened/

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 11/02/2020 20:23
Shock

What the hell is going on in Canada?

Lordfrontpaw · 11/02/2020 20:30

Is there something in the water or something?

BecauseReasons · 11/02/2020 20:32

WTF is wrong with Canada at the moment???

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 11/02/2020 20:33

ShockAngryShock
good article though & very relieved to read “The Federal Court overturned Randhawa’s decision when government lawyers conceded she deprived the woman of her right to procedural fairness and natural justice.”

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 11/02/2020 20:45

Glad that the decision was overturned.

Dear Canadian refugee judges, here are some reasons why a woman wouldn't abort a child conceived through rape:

  • She's catholic or has a similar religious objection.
  • She is in denial about the pregnancy until it's too late to abort in her jurisdiction.
  • Abortion is outlawed in her jurisdiction.
  • Abortion requires a male guardian's consent in her jurisdiction and her male guardian will not grant it.
  • She cannot afford to pay for an abortion.
  • She regards the child as innocent of the father's crime and deserving of compassion and has no objection otherwise to carrying to term.
Imnobody4 · 11/02/2020 20:46

Can't get my head around the fact that this is a woman.

theflushedzebra · 11/02/2020 20:51

Canada is not the land of milk, honey and reason that I once thought. I think it once was - but it's gone woke - and being woke actually boils down to misogyny and men's liberty.

BadgertheBodger · 11/02/2020 21:09

I think what we’re seeing in Canada is exactly what happens when women as a class start to be erased, forgotten about in law, deliberately have their rights put under attack and rolled back, and what it looks like when misogyny is allowed to rule unchecked.

It is absolutely horrifying.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/02/2020 21:21

I used to think Canada might be a nice place to live if it wasn't so cold. Used to.

In addition to cosigning everything bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg said I would add that this is also what happens when the system is set up to try to deny as many refugee claimants as possible. If we think it's not happening in the UK too I think that's a bit optimistic.

Hirsutefirs · 11/02/2020 22:14

“adjudicator says woman’s choice to keep baby means rape never happened”

That’s a judge who doesn’t know what the word “evidence” means.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 11/02/2020 22:25

What the hell is going on in Canada?
Bog standard misogyny, homophobia, and racism, that has been entrenched there for years.

Goosefoot · 12/02/2020 03:29

As a Canadian I am not surprised at this really. There is a whole sector of the population now that has no understanding of the idea that someone like this woman might not believe in abortion, and might do something as long-term as carry and raise a child conceived by rape. There has been a #nodebate around abortion questions from just before the time it started being used on trans issues - it was well established by the time Trudeau was elected and he attempted to make strategic use of it as a wedge issue.

The result of this is that a surprising number of people no longer seem to have any reference for why anyone would think differently than they do and might make a decision not to have an abortion after a rape.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 12/02/2020 12:59

The result of this is that a surprising number of people no longer seem to have any reference for why anyone would think differently than they do and might make a decision not to have an abortion after a rape.

Mark the calendar, bd and goosefoot agree on something. Shock Grin

I have no children and want none (yes, I know this is a parenting forum) but I understand that other women might choose to carry a child conceived through rape to term and why they might do that. This isn't a matter of empathy (what's that?) but of understanding that other people's motives and values may differ from mine. Is Canada really such a hive mind now that people have lost that skill?

Hell, I understand that what I think I would do in that situation and what I'd actually do in reality might not match. I think this is true for many women, which is why taking a pregnancy test is stressful and scary even in jurisdictions where abortion is legal.

Coyoacan · 12/02/2020 16:02

I find it very disturbing that the right to abortion has been turned into a duty to abort.

I see it on Mumsnet when a woman is pregnant and her sexual partner does not want the child, she is told that he is entitled to walk away from any responsability towards her and the child if she doesn't abort. She is also told that she would be immoral to expect any support from the glorious hard-done-by taxpayer.

Goosefoot · 12/02/2020 16:20

Is Canada really such a hive mind now that people have lost that skill?

This is a very interesting question because there has been a public process that has been fascinating, if disconcerting, to watch.

I will say first that it does not describe everyone. There are people who think differently. But even more than in the UK, there is this progressive sector of society that requires more and more unity of thought.

What seems to me to have happened is that as certain facts and histories have been eliminated from the consciousness of these groups, the ability to think differently has also been eliminated. In this case, it's the history of abortion and the law, which is somewhat unique. Much like other western democracies, some of the older laws were struck down by the courts, but unlike the others, there was never the political will to create new ones. So Canada has zero laws on abortion, at any time, there is no attempt even in the final days of a pregnancy to deal with the idea that the foetus might be worth some consideration or protection.

This is a result of political happenstance though, it wasn't necessarily a reflection of what most Canadians thought or a reflection of the constitutionality of abortion (indeed the judges who threw out the old laws mostly believed that new ones, of a more limited nature, were constitutionally viable.) It was also taken for granted in this period that it wasn't really a party issue, there were diverse opinions in all parties, based on values that really weren't political in nature.

The public forgetting about this went through two stages. In the first, certain groups remained resolutely quiet about it all, it was never brought up. A great many people, more than half IIRC, actually believed that we did have some restrictions on late term abortions.

More recently, maybe two or three election cycles ago, a new narrative began which maintained that the lack of any abortion laws was because the courts had decided they were unconstitutional, and in fact people like Trudeau even claimed that abortion is a protected right under the constitution. Both the Liberal and NDP parties began to require candidates to accept whipping of votes on the issue. In this past cycle, in quite a break from their roots, the Greens made it clear that although they don't whip votes as a matter of policy, they would prevent anyone from running who had different views on this. So as it stands now only the Conservative party allows MPs to vote as a matter of conscience.

Essentially in most public life, all potential arguments about when we should assign personhood, what makes someone, or even a non-human, eligible for protections, and this is important - the idea that there could be competing rights in questions like this, are simply not heard, at all. If they are brought up they are quickly labeled unCanadian, bigoted, and unconstitutional. (The trans narrative has followed the very same pattern with excellent results, as we see.)

What I have found strange, but I guess it makes sense, is for many people it seems that if they have never heard these discussions, it's like they can't understand the kinds of concepts or values that might surround them. They don't even know the words, so the ideas don't exist.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 12/02/2020 17:38

I find it very disturbing that the right to abortion has been turned into a duty to abort.

Me too. Pro-choice means pro-her-choice, not pro-abortion-for-others'-convenience.

I see it on Mumsnet when a woman is pregnant and her sexual partner does not want the child, she is told that he is entitled to walk away from any responsability towards her and the child if she doesn't abort. She is also told that she would be immoral to expect any support from the glorious hard-done-by taxpayer.

This is easy to debunk. He has the right to use his body to prevent parenthood, as does she. If he doesn't like the paltry range of contraceptives available to him, he should support the development of additional options. She cannot be compelled to abort because it's a violation of her human rights, and she cannot sign away her child's right to financial support from the father because it's not her right to sign away. Allowing men to opt-out of paternal responsibility during pregnancy creates a new form of legal bastardy (in the sense of the relationship between the parents governing the status of the child) where some children have a right to paternal support and others don't and enables him to coerciveluly influence a decision that should be the woman's alone.

So Canada has zero laws on abortion, at any time, there is no attempt even in the final days of a pregnancy to deal with the idea that the foetus might be worth some consideration or protection.

I'm of the view that at no point should foetal life trump the right of the woman to decide that she no longer wishes to be pregnant. "As early as possible, as late as necessary." But that's a legal position that should be arrived at openly with public debate and free votes, not by rulings that overturn laws with attempts to relegislate quietly suppressed. Those whose positions are defensible do not have to resort to stealth.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 12/02/2020 17:50

she can't be compelled to abort because it's a violation of her human rights

Specifically, compelled abortion would be compelled medical treatment without an overwhelming public safety reason for it. Public safety is why detention of coronavirus patients, compelled antibiotic treatment of TB patients, and "sectioning" of psychiatric patients can be allowed. "It's going to cost the father/taxpayer money" doesn't even come close to justifying compelled medical treatment.

popehilarious · 12/02/2020 17:56

Has there been much public outcry in Canada about the judge saying this?

GothMummy · 12/02/2020 18:06

This is horrific and dystopian. Thank goodness it was over turned.

Goosefoot · 12/02/2020 18:37

But that's a legal position that should be arrived at openly with public debate and free votes, not by rulings that overturn laws with attempts to relegislate quietly suppressed. Those whose positions are defensible do not have to resort to stealth.

It's the same tactic we seem to be finding with lobby groups and certain kinds of leftists. And there is this absolute moral certainty there that is kind of astonishing.

But the real danger IMO is that once the ideas are suppressed successfully for a time, people stop having the ability to talk and think about the ideas.
Of course it leads to an deep social rifts as well.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page