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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Nine - BBC Scotland - Tonight (10 Feb)

71 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/02/2020 20:52

Not sure how many people will be able to watch this, but they are going to have four "stories" about the proposed GRA reforms in Scotland.

Looks quite good from the trailer on twitter:
twitter.com/BBCScotNine/status/1226959021271388168?s=19

OP posts:
Babdoc · 10/02/2020 21:46

I’m genuinely surprised that you found this many PPs who actually watch the BBC Scotland channel. I live there, and have never considered any programme listed on it remotely worth watching! The SNP propaganda on the main BBC local news is bad enough.
I try not to be pessimistic, but Sturgeon and her motley party (if any of them are left after they throw out the online groomers, embezzlers and alleged attempted rapists) are so determined to flaunt their woke credentials that they will probably force the GRA through in the teeth of any amount of opposition from feminists. All we can do then is bring court cases on behalf of all the women who will suffer the consequences. I’d love to see a class action lawsuit for massive damages for the women forced to share prisons with (and be assaulted by) the likes of Karen White.

scotsheather · 10/02/2020 21:46

Rhona is always class talks such sense. Sinead so powerful and moving on the realities. Emily sounded more like a mansplainer (oh wait). James, erm...... same old.

Galvantula · 10/02/2020 21:50

I only found it because if this thread! And by a fluke remembered at 9.

littlbrowndog · 10/02/2020 22:03

When I ran the UK’s only NHS Gender Dysphoria Psychotherapy service (2000-2012) 26% of my patients were post-op regretters mostly MTF. For many I was the only person they told of their regret. They described a sense of shame after ‘convincing’ Drs to give them what they wanted

littlbrowndog · 10/02/2020 22:03

Not me. But posting from twitter

littlbrowndog · 10/02/2020 22:05

Of course the numbers are much higher. My post-op regretters never told any transactivist/advocate of their regret and most did not go back to tell the GI clinic who had given them what they ‘wanted’ previously. The data invisible and so quoted data inaccurate

littlbrowndog · 10/02/2020 22:09

The doctors name is az hakeem who wrote the above

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 10/02/2020 23:05

‘Emily’ (non binary) said ‘gender is assigned at birth dependent on physical characteristics. You play a male or female role depending on your sex’. So this IS about stereotypes of male and female. These stereotypes are seen as unchangeable, immovable. If you don’t like the one ‘assigned’ to you you have no option but to ‘transition’. Never is the idea that the rigid stereotypes are the real problem and we should fight these entertained.

bettybeans · 11/02/2020 01:38

Emily getting snide about Higher Biology with a polite, professional and courteous journalist was a memorable lowlight. Wish James had been clear about sex at that point though, would’ve made the exchange much more coherent. Hey ho. It was a decent effort all the same.

Emily basically parroted every line from the TRA playbook as well. The remark about “hate” just sounded completely weird, especially coming after Sinead’s segment. Sinead did brilliantly. So calm, clear and composed.

NonnyMouse1337 · 11/02/2020 07:26

Thanks for the reminder about this programme! I would never have known it was on otherwise. I tuned in and thought it was pretty good and balanced. I'm glad they set it out as four separate interviews rather than everyone on a panel together shouting over each other or trying to get their points across. It was a good idea to give everyone the space to say their piece without interruption.

Very impressed that they had Sinead on first. Her testimony was calm yet powerful. Thank you Sinead for putting yourself out there and speaking up for detransitioners everywhere. Detransitioners are avoided in TRA propaganda, so the fact that the programme put a detransitioner on first was actually quite a statement. I liked that the guy who was handling the interviews (sorry I'm bad with names) mentioned that although estimates put detransitioners at a low figure, we actually don't have accurate numbers for the overall transgender population.
(Which begs the question why there was such a push to allow trans people to fill in their sex in the Scottish census on the basis of self-id rather than fact... Surely that would only obfuscate the numbers and reduce the accuracy of any data gathered.....)

The second person was like TRA bingo... All the buzzwords - assigned gender.. or sex... it's the same thing.... But not the same thing.... Who knows.... high school biology.... Hate everywhere.... Just awful.... No debate.... Denying my existence... So much hate... Hurts my feelings.... Oh and intersex!
They seemed completely unable to explain what non-binary is and what being neither man nor woman actually entails, yet expected legislation to recognise a fuzzy, vague concept because otherwise it upsets some people like them.
I liked that the interviewer phrased it as 'people who identify as another gender from the one they were born with' or something similar. At least he didn't capitulate to the 'assigned at birth' lingo. I think they should one day interview a rep from DSD Families or a similar organisation to talk about how they repeatedly ask that intersex not be conflated with trans issues.

Rhona Hotchkiss was fab as always. Hats off to her as well for explaining how vulnerable women in prisons are and mentioning how one trans woman prisoner threatened to rape female staff and inmates. She conveyed a great point about how transgender people should be defined clearly in law and protected, but that a man cannot literally become a woman. What a star!

James ... Trying to be the diplomatic middle man calling for calm (Sinead and Rhona didn't come across as hateful, bigoted Nazis)... Yet he's surprised that there's been such a public reaction. Do you think he's realised the strategy of keeping things hidden from public scrutiny as mentioned by the Dentons reports hasn't worked out well in terms of PR?

The female host in the programme talking about changing gender in birth certificates as some minor administrative paperwork raised my eyebrow. (what's the purpose of a birth certificate by the way if anyone can change it?)

Overall, I'm really glad to see such a programme aired at prime viewing time. People can make their own mind up and many will have more questions than answers... I hope!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/02/2020 08:02

Piece on the BBC website describing the programme:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-51445579?__twitter_impression=true

OP posts:
Binterested · 11/02/2020 08:15

Looks like a reasonable website piece - because it’s not written by that dreadful LGBT PR journalist Ben Hunte.

R0wantrees · 11/02/2020 10:21

James ... Trying to be the diplomatic middle man calling for calm (Sinead and Rhona didn't come across as hateful, bigoted Nazis)... Yet he's surprised that there's been such a public reaction. Do you think he's realised the strategy of keeping things hidden from public scrutiny as mentioned by the Dentons reports hasn't worked out well in terms of PR?

James Morton manager of Scottish Trans Alliance?
Morton has been very influential in changing/writing/ influencing many policies in Scotland including schools, prison, census.
Morton was also an advisor/witness at the Westminster APPG Trans Inquiry.

www.scottishtrans.org/about-us/who-we-are/

R0wantrees · 11/02/2020 10:38

The doctors name is az hakeem who wrote the above

Dr Az Hakeem is worth following on twitter.
I remember reading his book, 'TRANS: Exploring Gender Identity and Gender Dysphoria. A Guide For Everyone including clinicians (Pulling the Trigger).
The book was published early 2018. (Profits to a MH charity.)

The opening chapters by Dr Hakeem provide clear descriptions of sex, gender, sexuality, transsexualism, transvestism and autogynephilia etc.

There are then a series of essays from a range of different perspectives.
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Identity-Dysphoria-Pulling-ebook/dp/B079NKJ22B?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Dr Az Hakeem:
Medicine MBBS : University College London
Fellow of The Royal College of Psychiatrists
CCST in Forensic Psychiatry
CCST in Psychotherapy
MSc Group Analysis

www.drazhakeem.com/about/

In 2011 Dr Hakeem was subject to TRA protests:

Pink News:
(extract)
"A conference on transgender issues has been cancelled by the Royal College of Psychiatrists after a leading gender identity clinic pulled out.

The May 20th event in London, titled ‘Transgender: time to change’, angered trans campaigners who said it was one-sided and questioned speakers’ credentials.

Trans campaigners objected to the conference for a number of reasons, including the fact that lesbian activist Julie Bindel was listed as a speaker. Ms Bindel once called gender reassignment surgery “modern-day aversion therapy for gays and lesbians”.

They also complained about the fact that the conference was organised by the RCPsych’s Lesbian and Gay Special Interest Group, which they said had no expertise on trans issues.

Another speaker, Dr Az Hakeem, has been accused of “pathologising” trans people.

The Gender Identity Clinic at Charing Cross Hospital, which is the UK’s oldest and most respected trans treatment centre, explained why it had pulled out. (continues)

Trans writer and activist Jane Fae, speaking for the organisers of the trans protest, said: “The only people to blame for this are the Royal College. They could have had a very successful event if they had talked to the trans community and included people.”
www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/04/19/london-transgender-conference-cancelled-after-trans-complaints/

NonnyMouse1337 · 11/02/2020 11:00

R0wantrees - yes James Morton of Scottish Trans Alliance.

Morton has been very influential in changing/writing/ influencing many policies in Scotland including schools, prison, census.
Morton was also an advisor/witness at the Westminster APPG Trans Inquiry.

Pushing self-id policies ahead of adequate public scrutiny and legislation huh..... Interesting....

R0wantrees · 11/02/2020 11:32

OP TheHarpySings reported from September 2018 transactivist conference 'We're Still Here' organised by Jane Fae.

(extract)
"Jane Fae said that JF has been in contact w/ YHA and GirlGuiding. Fae is of the opinion that the law doesn’t distinguish gender and sex. They are not defined and parliament will not define them.

The TRAs are fully prepared to take local councils to court of they try to invoke EA2010 for reasons of sex. JF was nodding at Giuliana when JF said this.

James Morton (Scottish Trans Alliance) said to be “strategic about test cases to ensure strong case law”.

Edward Lord agreed. He also said that the City of London Corp city solicitor and the Chief Exec are “strong allies”." (continues)

  1. GETTING THE GRA WE WANT

This was a workshop with 3 experts sitting with groups and talking through activism. They were:

Helen Belcher (Lib Dems, Trans Media Watch)
James Morton (Scottish Transgender Alliance)
Alex Moore (GenderJam). Moore is from N Ireland.

James Morton gave some insight into tactics the TRAs will probably start using in England and Wales as they were successful in Scotland.

He said the TRAs need to build allies in mainstream women and children’s organisations so it looks like they care about them.

He also said what worked in Scotland's was a “constructive, friendly, innocent” tone when debating or in dialogue with the GC side. To be mindful about who is watching- essentially like what we do with the lurkers on the FWR board. To make the TRAs look like the reasonable side.

James also said that in dialect with elected officials, to clarify that the trans side aren’t silencing anyone but want to clarify the misconceptions being bandied around by GC feminists.

The Scottish GRA changes will probably be put forward in the 2019-2020 parliamentary year.

Belcher has been meeting with MPs and members of the House of Lords. Most of them don’t really understand the GRA and don’t have much time to think about it thanks to the Brexit FUBAR. “Education” of law makers is needed and that’s what Belcher is doing.

Apparently the TRAs lack the infrastructure they had in the 1990s and early 2000s so they need to think carefully and coordinate.

Belcher said to re-iterate to MPs that the EA2010 is not being affected and no one is losing any rights (wtf).

Apparently in terms of political support, the Tories are split about 50/50, Labour, Lib Dem's and SNP are all onside. The Greens were NOT mentioned.

The big fear on the TRA side is that this Government won’t survive long enough to get this through- again because Brexit.

According to Alex Moore, Arlene Foster of the DUP went to a Pink News event and didn’t seem to know much about this. In NI no one really cares about the trans issues because everyone is focused on same sex marriage and abortion.

Alex then moaned about the Together for Yes campaign’s transmisogyny and that the campaign completely erased the experiences of trans and NB people who need abortions. Alex would like a legal change of gender to be free of charge and as easy as changing your name.

Helen Belcher was annoyed at GC feminists using “emotive arguments” regards rape.

HB said that the pile ons pro self-ID MPs get from the GC side if they say something supportive of the trans side are not helping the GC cause. Maria Miller told Belcher that MPs got loads of abuse in the run up to marriage equality and that abusive messages, tweets from GC feminists will only harden MPs against the GC side.

HB also said something snide about “mouthy” female Labour MPs who speak before thinking on Twitter- especially on a Friday or Saturday night after they’ve had a few drinks.

Apparently the TRAs have civil service support and that the Stonewall report and Gov survey are strong bits of evidence they have which is helping them win arguments.

They are saying there is no risk to reforming the GRA and are asking MPs “what is the risk?”

In the group I was in they also talked about how changing your gender multiple times should be allowed and shouldn’t be seen as “bad intentions”.

James Morton talked about how they can get rid of “gender” markers on things like IT systems and places where it isn’t relevant- apparently GDPR might be able to help them here.

JM’s campaigning tips were to gain trust in the local community- and to approach moderate feminists, “correct misconceptions and forgive any ignorance they may have displayed”. They want to gain trust and make themselves likeable.

Apparently small acts like helping to campaign about period poverty or retweeting the local branch of Women’s Aid will make a difference and result in some reciprocation. They want to make it look like they care about Women's issues so they don’t appear threatening" (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

OhHolyJesus · 11/02/2020 11:55

Isn't Sinead also Yorick? On a past Magdalen Berns video and interviewed by Benjamin Boyse recently?

NonnyMouse1337 · 11/02/2020 12:06

Thanks for sharing that invaluable information, R0wantrees, especially on James Morton.

The link to the e-book for Dr Az Hakeem didn't work for me, but I found the paperback version in case anyone is interested in buying it.
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Gender-Identity-Dysphoria/dp/1911246496/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

GrinitchSpinach · 11/02/2020 14:05

Sinead goes by Watson on Twitter:

mobile.twitter.com/ImWatson91

Her interview with Boyce (excellent but crazy long! Skip the weird intro with the bunny):
m.youtube.com/watch?v=M0zWaNdkp7Y

littlbrowndog · 11/02/2020 14:21

Thanks rowan. Awesome as usual

SarahConnorFem · 12/02/2020 07:13

Emily - non binary trans woman. Sitting there looking like, well, a woman. What the heck is a NB TW?? Why go to all that bother and then claim NB? Just to be deliberately awkward and confuse people further perhaps? So twisted and F-Up. And yes she/they spouted all the usual crap. 🤨

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