Endeavour and feminism

[nettie434]

Is anybody else watching this? Set in 1970 with references to women's feminist conference and Sally Alexander. In a typical example of Endeavour in-referencing Sally Alexander was John Thaw's first wife according to Twitter. Also, a vile character won't let his wife have a cheque book. I was too young in 1970 to know about all this - an increasingly rare experience these days.

I think it’s quite hard for writers and actors to correctly portray the unconscious and widespread sexism and racism of the era. Especially if the character is one we are meant to like or identify with.
I gather that during the filming of “Life on Mars”, the actors were regularly horrified at the politically incorrect (by today’s standards) dialogue they had to utter, and struggled to even speak the words aloud.
It’s interesting for old biddies like me, who lived through it, to see how very much times have changed, and how shocking the “normality” of 1970 now looks in retrospect!

One of our gynae consultants told us he was delighted at the rising number of female students as it meant “more women for us to sleep with”

Aaargh! Really shocking Babdoc. That would be a prime example of genuine dialogue that actors today would be horrified to deliver.

I think the idea that Child Benefit (and its predecessors) should be paid directly to mothers comes from Eleanor Rathbone who was almost single handedly responsible for the introduction of Family Allowance. Any politician who doesn’t understand why it needs to be this way needs to read those threads on AIBU or Relationships where women are financially abused. It’s so hard to get that balance right between what works for the majority who are reasonable and the minority who are not.

I vaguely remember a Morse episode in which he met the woman who broke his heart. I think it is a bit of a cliche to have a Lonely Detective. The exception is Granchester (hope this isn’t a spoiler for anyone) where in the books at least Sidney is happily married.

Going back to Morse having really old fashioned ideas about women, there was an episode where the usual pathologist wasn't available and a young woman came. Morse was shocked, not so much that she wasn't educated enough to do it, but inappropriate that a woman should have to see and examine the results of violence on a human body.

Also have found the episode that explains Morse's broken heart, though dont remember it well enough to work out if it would have happened prior to Endeeavour starting or is yet to happen and may be an opportunity for a daughter or grand daughter of the original actress take on the role! morseandlewisandendeavour.com/2017/08/22/a-review-of-morse-episode-dead-on-time-plus-the-locations-music-and-literary-references/

I've been re-watching older Morses recently too. I hadn't recalled how poor his attitude to women was - really quite angry and entitled when his advances are rebuffed.

If you think the TV series is bad, don't read the books. They are horrific - all young women musing about how odd it is that they are attracted to this older, not conventionally attractive man before turning out to either be the murderer or be engaged. The case where he investigates the Victorian murder while in hospital (one of my favourite TV episodes) has the older female author but in the book I think she is a young attractive library assistant who finds him oddly appealing.

I had the full set of books and read about 4-5 before giving up in disgust and taking them to the charity shop. And I never get rid of books...

I have to say, I found Morse pretty appealing, and John Thaw is really not my type physically speaking. But I tend to like rather grumpy misanthropic men.

@testing987654321 I said the same thing at the time about stopping child benefit at the time but people thought I was mad.

Also have found the episode that explains Morse's broken heart, though dont remember it well enough to work out if it would have happened prior to Endeeavour starting or is yet to happen

I think it's background to why Endeavour abandoned his studies and joined the police. IIRC it's referenced, and he meets some of the relevant people again, but I don't think that episode in his life is acted out as an episode in the series.

But I thought that was the catalyst for his career-change, not the cause of his bachelorhood.

He and Thursday's dd were so clearly made for each other and attracted to each other, that their mutual heartbreak at refusing to get together spurred him forever, I think.

Endeavour's character is so much nicer and more open-minded than Morse's that I now prefer to think of them as two unrelated characters.

If you think the TV series is bad, don't read the books

I was about to say the same - the Morse's of the original series is positively enlightened compared to Book Morse.

I've only read a couple but there was one where they're at a mruder scene - the male victims house - and Morse finds a stash of the man's porn. He sends Lewis and the other officers off to do things elsewhere and settles down with the stack of magazines...

The books are dire, yes! I've always assumed they reflect the author's fantasy life. There's something similar in at least one later Dalziel book by Reginald Hill, where the dynamic between Dalziel and a much younger attractive woman (a witness?) is jarringly flirtatious. I wonder if it's a tendency of some middle aged male authors of surly middle aged male detectives?

I wonder if it's a tendency of some middle aged male authors of surly middle aged male detectives?

I don't think it's just detective fiction authors. Rereading some classic dystopian books a couple of years back - 1984, Day of the Triffids etc. Every single one has a middle aged male character and a young female secondary character who they fancy and/or end up with at some point. Had the same thought about author fantasy and can't think about the books any other way now.

Yes, once you see it... You do sometimes find it the other way round - I think Lord Peter Wimsey was Dorothy L. Sayers' perfect man and Harriet Vane is arguably DLS herself! Although in that case the love interest is much more three-dimensional as a character and gets proper attention for himself, which may say something about how middle aged male authors see women, compared to how middle aged female authors see men.

I think it's background to why Endeavour abandoned his studies and joined the police.

Have now found whilst looking up the episode about Morse's broken engagement that in fact he gave up his studies as a result of family problems (step mother dying - hostile father) and / or lost his grant and went and joined the army??!!

Dont remember any reference to that episode in his life. Or Endeavour's!

Usually I prefer original books to adaptations but one Colin Dexter and one Reginald Hill were quite enough for me. Detective fiction is one area where women writers seem to have found it easier to get recognition which is interesting.

I'm probably conflating things to suit my memory of Endeavour, stumbledin. I'm one of those annoying "Hang on a sec, which one was he?" people when in comes to long-winded, convoluted plots. Dh loves Endeavour, Morse, and the books, so we've probably watched and read every single one! It doesn't really stick.

Well to tell the truth I never watched Morse at the time and have only watched it via reruns which are always out of sequence anyway. But was struck by how unpleasant he was and how had it ever been so popular. (I always felt sorry for Lewis and then they went and paired him of with that even more arrogant male elitist who it seems isn't even acting that's who he is!)

I was more caught up in how do they take the threads from Morse which so many people know, and then try and work them into a prequel.

But on the major point, it seems they just couldn't bear to make Endeavour as unpleasant as he must have been as a smug young man. I suspect Morse's Thursday was no way as forgiving and fatherly to a jumped up recruit trying to tell him how to do his job, and implying he was a bit slow and would catch up with Morse's razor sharp brain!

"But on the major point, it seems they just couldn't bear to make Endeavour as unpleasant as he must have been as a smug young man. I suspect Morse's Thursday was no way as forgiving and fatherly to a jumped up recruit trying to tell him how to do his job, and implying he was a bit slow and would catch up with Morse's razor sharp brain!"

I do hope they don't gradually warp the Endeavour character into a bitter and twisted proto-Morse stumbledin Much better to just have an occasional "Ooooo!!!" nod to a bit of Morse's personal history or development of a Morse-plot prequel.

Funnily enough, I've also been watching old episodes of "Life on Mars" and was thinking that DCI Sam Tyler is a bit like the Morse character taken back in time to "Endeavour". LOM obviously played for laughs as far as some of the more extreme parody-Sweeney-cum-Only-Fools-and-Horses characters . . . John Thaw again!

I have adored John Simm since "The Lakes" (so I hope he hasn't got any skeletons in his closet) and Shaun Evans has the same sort of vibe. Then the idea formed in my head that DS Endeavour (Shaun Evans) would equate to DS George Carter (Denis Waterman) in "The Sweeney" - hair-raising!! 😱😱😱

. . . and Thursday would have to be DI Jack Regan (John Thaw!)