Men can't get cervical cancer

[ohwerehalfwaythere]

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/cervical-cancer-prevention-week-2020-symptoms-a9300756.html

Article about surviving cervical cancer and yet feels the need to say she is a cis woman...didn't realise men couldn't get cervical cancer without a cervix...thanks for making it clear

All women, including trans men who still have a cervix

No that’s the sort of language you can get away with on MN. But I doubt the NHS would use ‘including’ as it wouldn’t respect the identities of most trans men, who don’t see themselves as women.

The NHS generally tries not to offend people.

woman i think thats a good phase

Following fields post maybe just ‘and’ instead of ‘including’

Or ‘women and everyone else with a cervix’

Saw this notice in the (clearly unisex, fully-enclosed, individually-positioned on a corridor) loos at a clinic recently. A logical way of keeping 'diverse' people informed.

Though, as women and men who are unaware of these ideological issues also use these toilets, I would prefer the notice to have two more columns: 'men', 'women'. But that would probably be seen as triggering, and therefore transphobic, as it would result in two identical pairs of columns.

I'm totally GC but I don't have a problem with this. Yes, I hate the term 'cis' but the fact is that transmen do need smear tests and just avoiding the fact that there may well be barriers to them getting a smear and saying 'only women have a cervix' isn't actually going to achieve anything and could end up in some transmen being harmed.

@call
What does GC mean?
Also, in what way will transmen be harmed?

I imagine that the discussions around trans men being fully informed about needing smear tests take place with medical professionals when the trans man is in there discussing their hormone therapy? I.e., TM visits GP to get repeat prescription of hormones, GP reminds TM of need for smear test. TM is perfectly able to book an appointment with the practice nurse for this either online, or over the phone if they don't want to do it via the receptionist.

GC is 'gender critical'. I don't believe that transmen are men, they are women.

However - you 'imagine' how the conversation goes, but you don't know do you? The Eve Appeal is doing a lot of work at the moment to encourage trans men and non-binary females to go for a smear, and for training for HCPs who deal with trans people to encourage them to go. At first I rolled my eyes, but ultimately I can't see how screeching 'men can't get cervical cancer' over and over is actually going to help trans men, who believe they are men, go for their smear test.

Thanks @call. I've learned something new, and I'm GC too!
No, you're right, I don't know precisely how the conversation would go. I guess I'm just using common sense to assume that a woman who identifies as a man will have had enough interaction with HCPs as a result, that the topic of what screenings they will need to access such as smears, mammograms (if they still have their breasts) etc will have taken place. If a trans man who has not had surgery is in denial about the existence of their cervix (because they're a 'man' and men don't have them duh?) then they will possibly never accept the need for a smear test. Perhaps it's like someone telling me to have a test on my prostate. I'd tell them to stop being so ridiculous as I'm a woman so why would I need to do that.
It's a bloody minefield!

It's a bloody minefield!

It sure is, and I'm cross that it's come to a point where young people might be so confused with the messages they are being given.

I think one of the problems here is that yes, it probably is hard for transmen to face that they still need to care for their female body (especially if they are taking testosterone) but surely this is part of informed consent!

Surely, if you have approached a doctor and made these medical decisions, you have thought through how you will do this, what support you might need to access etc. That the language around it is going to be woman-focussed and that you are an exception to this and will have to handle it.

I think that if we're handing out testosterone to transmen, and not making sure they're prepared for what their life is going to be like as someone with a female body, and a need to have all the same checks as any other woman whilst strongly believing they are a men, and endeavouring to look like a man.

I don't think it's actually inclusive to erase women from advertising and literature, in order to avoid talking about something that a transman absolutely should have spoken about with their medical care team, and found a strategy to cope with without obscuring the purpose of a test for the vast, vast majority of people who will be needing it.

All women, including trans men who still have a cervix and non binary people of the female sex.

The above sentence is a good example of Plain English structure: I would not expect anybody with learning/cognitive difficulties to understand it if the notion is unfamiliar to them. tbh, I'd not be surprised if people with an above average level of literacy skills struggle with it.

But some people might not be able to understand that 'cervical' refers to the cervix, never mind that they themselves have one. The word 'woman' needs to be much more prominent and repeated. That is plain English.

I had that argument on Twitter with a man who was convinced that the 'cervix' was a non gendered body part because '''it also applies to your neck''' - so therefore everyone should be called for PAP tests and not just women.
He did not accept that it is a massive waste of resources to call everyone for every kind of test for fear of offending anyone.

He added a link for proof that used the word 'cervical' in relation to a neck injury, but still couldn't accept that has nothing to do with a PAP. All he managed to do was illustrate why we need to use plain English terms like 'woman', and not be offended because not everything is inclusive.
It just isn't. I will never need a test for prostate cancer. Thats not offensive or exclusionary.

That's right! Cervical spine and cervical vertebrae. Hadn't even thought of that! Just goes to show...

Cervix means neck - neck of the womb. Did he think that men should attend for a skin swab of their Adam's apple? What a bellend

Are there are more women than trans-men that don't know they are 'cervix-havers'?

Very likely. All the women for whom English is a relatively recent second language. All the women with lower-than-average literacy. All the women with no medical interest (a colleague mentioned that she'd had a 'water infection' while pregnant, for which she'd been hospitalised. I asked "UTI or amniotic?" and she had no idea. Hadn't even occurred to her to ask.)

I asked "UTI or amniotic?" and she had no idea. Hadn't even occurred to her to ask.)
Are you joking? You said that and she didn't know what to reply? I'm not surprised.

I mean if you say to someone ''UTI or amniotic?' they won't know what you mean, unless they have medical training.

I think I might be getting in to the wrong fight here, but seriously.

I mean if you say to someone ''UTI or amniotic?' they won't know what you mean, unless they have medical training.

That's exactly my point. She knew what the words meant, but it hadn't occurred to her to ask which 'waters' were infected.

I also have colleagues who don't know that a UTI is the modern term for what they know as a 'water infection'. They have all been pregnant and even that grandmothers know what amniotic fluid is, even if they themselves say 'my/her waters'.

This is why cervical smear information needs to be crystal clear, talking about women, not using some made-up, pseudo-scientific nonsense. Certainly transmen can be mentioned as well.

Thank you for clarifying, that's helpful

Ok upthread I mentioned that I'd recently received a leaflet about cervical screening and that the only mention of 'woman' on the first page was a sentence that trans women don't need screening.

I looked at the leaflet online published by Public Health England and was surprised to see that under 'Who we invite' they say 'women and people with a cervix'. My leaflet doesn't mention who they invite. See screenshots The whiter one is PHE, the yellower one is my leaflet.

To whom should I write and complain?

The only demographic specifically mentioned under 'Who we invite' is trans people. This makes it sound like cervical screening is only offered to trans people.

Bonkers.

That screenshot says women and people with a cervix though, so not just sounding like inviting trans people at all?
The message clearly says they invite women too

But look at the other one, Wotcha. The one I actually received. It doesn't mention women. I wouldn't have known it was supposed to mention women if I hadn't gone online and searched for it. I didn't receive the first one. I received the second one.

OK, you're correct, the other one doesn't say woman on it - surely women know they're eligible for a smear test?
I mean, I know I should get an invite every 3 or so years, it doesn't mean it's confusing matters by mentioning trans men too, my cervix doesn't automatically stop existing because they're telling trans men they should be tested as well