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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

gender neutralising of domestic abuse is on the rise (Jane Garvey r4 WH)

50 replies

TruthOnTrial · 03/02/2020 13:36

If we all claim that abuse is due to narcissism, it can erase male perpetrated violence against women and children.

The term narcissist was defined accurately as a rare personality disorder of self love.

This was then conflated with a non-binary view, as in NPD is a spectrum.

Neither words were used in the interview that took place as a follow up to a woman experiencing abuse from another woman.

This is a growing trend that I've noticed in the media, on forums, and generally in conversarion, similar to the irrelevance of saying but women abuse too as a deflection.

This is also becoming more widespread in womens services.

The Freedom Programme thankfully will not hold with skewing the facts of male perpetrated dv and have had to intervene where any group deliberately alter their materials to skew women's education around gendered abuse.

Its worrying that women survivors are being exposed to this erasure of dv being gendered. I have seen many posters on MN and elsewhere adopt this approach also.

Its part of erasing statistics from what I can see.

There is already substantial underfunding in refuge and related dv services, according to wa recent reports, but if stats are erased there can be no justification for funding for womens protection.

OP posts:
Gingerkittykat · 05/02/2020 04:47

It was an outside trainer so not got the slides the showed.

People were receptive to the stats about how women and girls made up the majority of victims.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 05/02/2020 05:58

11th rule of misogyny: Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.

This is a message we receive constantly from law enforcement to media, both news and entertainment media. It's one of those things that once you recognize what you are seeing you realize it is ubiquitous.

GrandmaMazur · 05/02/2020 09:37

I read an article on the BBC yesterday about a woman's experience of domestic abuse and I was surprised by the statistics it quoted about abuse against men/women (interesting that men are discussed first when the crime is much more likely to happen to women) :

Figures from the Office of National Statistics show how important it is for solutions to be found. In 2018, 4.2% of men and 7.9% of women suffered domestic abuse, which equates to about 685,000 male victims and 1,300,000 women. Murders related to domestic violence are at a five-year high, with an average of two women murdered every week.

Article here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-51360772

I was interested to know how these figures break down - what form the domestic abuse takes, what sex is the person carrying out the abuse and, perhaps how male and female are actually defined. We know that abusers often claim that their partner is actually the abuser which I imagine muddies the waters somewhat.

I had a look at the Office for National Statistics website and the figures quoted are self-reported numbers from a crime survey so don't all relate to recorded crimes. (I don't know who fills in the survey so can't comment on that) However, looking at the ONS's latest information on domestic abuse-related crimes according to sex of victim, the victim was female in 75% of cases overall, and in 96% of cases of sexual offences - a much bigger percentage than suggested by the crime survey figures.

When looking at domestic homicides of the 270 female victims of domestic homicide for the year ending March 2016 to the year ending March 2018, the suspect was male in the majority of cases (260). Of the 96 male victims of domestic homicide in the same timeframe, the suspect was female in 46 cases, and male in 50 cases.

ONS information here - section 4: www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/domesticabusevictimcharacteristicsenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019

It is pretty clear from these numbers that men are disproportionately the perpetrators and women are disproportionately the victims.

On re-reading the BBC article I was shocked that I hadn't noticed some of the gender neutral terminology first time around. I initially read it thinking that 'victim' was 'woman' and 'perpetrator' was 'man' but it doesn't actually say that!

As an aside, the policing pilot scheme in Cheshire sounds very positive and I hope that will be rolled out to other areas.

TruthOnTrial · 05/02/2020 20:25

Policing pilot scheme?

OP posts:
GrandmaMazur · 06/02/2020 09:07

Truth ah sorry, I posted in a hurry.

The pilot scheme I mentioned was described in the BBC article I linked to above but in a nutshell it involves sending a domestic abuse officer to support the 'victim' and talk through their options for getting help when the 'perpetrator' is taken away by the police instead of leaving them on their own when they are more likely to decline to press charges. This has increased the number of cases resulting in "in a charge, summons, caution, or community resolution" - though this still only relates to 74 of the 180 cases they've dealt with so far.

TruthOnTrial · 06/02/2020 17:03

Oh hurrah! Support for the survivors to go through with a huge ordeal. Thank you.

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marvellousnightforamooncup · 06/02/2020 17:11

I've noticed this on SM too. There was always whataboutery but since the most recent Johnny Depp/Amber Heard stories there's been a spike.

MoltenLasagne · 06/02/2020 17:22

Its lies, dammed lies and statistics when it comes to those ONS figures. I remember looking into them 3 years ago and discovered that as well as encompassing familial violence ie between children and parents, for men only, domestic violence also included men who were attacked by the ex of their current girlfriend or by current partner of their ex.

Whilst these are crimes that should be reported I highly question whether they should be classed as domestic violence, particularly as this male on male violence is being used to give a false impression of female perpetrators.

TruthOnTrial · 06/02/2020 17:49

Anything to erase the the actual level of anger, hate, and actual violence against women and children.

It's all going on, and narcissicism as the cause, and the whole DARVO reaction is on the rise. If you're the survivors female you're the hater apparently.

You literally couldn't make it up, and its cognitive dissonance and perpetrator tactics on a scale off the scale.

OP posts:
TruthOnTrial · 06/02/2020 18:07

Anything to erase the the actual level of anger, hate, and actual violence against women and children.

It's all going on, and narcissicism as the cause, and the whole DARVO reaction is on the rise. If you're the survivors female you're the hater apparently.

You literally couldn't make it up, and its cognitive dissonance and perpetrator tactics on a scale off the scale.

OP posts:
GrandmaMazur · 07/02/2020 09:13

Its lies, dammed lies and statistics when it comes to those ONS figures. I remember looking into them 3 years ago and discovered that as well as encompassing familial violence ie between children and parents, for men only, domestic violence also included men who were attacked by the ex of their current girlfriend or by current partner of their ex.

Whilst these are crimes that should be reported I highly question whether they should be classed as domestic violence, particularly as this male on male violence is being used to give a false impression of female perpetrators.

I agree - it would be much better to have clear numbers of partner on partner violence with a breakdown of sex. I imagine that it would be blatantly obvious who the majority of perpetrators and victims are.

GrandmaMazur · 07/02/2020 09:15

Oh hurrah! Support for the survivors to go through with a huge ordeal.

Truth - I hadn't really thought of that. I thought it sounded like the police were trying to do something to help but you're quite right.

NeurotrashWarrior · 07/02/2020 18:42

Sorry I've not returned to this.

I just checked the first thing sent out which was about coercive control.

This was a quote - it must be correct?
An estimated 7.9% of women (1.3 million) and 4.2% of men (695,000) experienced domestic abuse in the last year.
*(Crime Survey for England and Wales, March 2018)

95% of domestic abuse survivors report experiencing coercive control.*
(Kelly et al, 2014)

However, the second quote is surely going to be from stats that are different, ie women who've had physical dv and the numbers are surely higher there?

Then the sheet went on to describe the Alex Skeel case.

I appreciate that dv occurs regardless of sex. I felt that there was a dumbing down of the impact on and numbers of women.

StrawberryJam200 · 07/02/2020 19:53

Sorry but I don’t understand the ‘support for survivors to go through with a huge ordeal’ bit? I know someone said it earlier, but what does it mean?

TruthOnTrial · 07/02/2020 22:49

support for survivors to go through with a huge ordeal’ bit

Pp talked about the cheshire police initiative of a female police officer staying with the survivor after the initial report to encourage follow through on reporting.

I'm not sure if that's what you meant by not understanding, does that answer?

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StrawberryJam200 · 07/02/2020 22:59

Thanks TruthOnTrial, that is what I meant.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 07/02/2020 23:19

I thought it would show a bit more. Sorry.
"A police officer yesterday said he did not regret taking the mobile phone of a domestic abuse victim later murdered by her violent ex-boyfriend.

Sergeant Adam Aggas seized Katrina O’Hara’s mobile for evidence after she made a complaint that Stuart Thomas had threatened to kill her, an inquest heard.

It meant the mother-of-three, originally from Bangour, West Lothian, would not have been able to contact police immediately had Thomas come after her.

Thomas, now aged 53, killed Katrina, 44, seven days after he was released from police custody having been arrested for harassment."

slousa · 20/09/2020 17:26

Please,
If this is the case please name where and who etc the training was through as this has to be highlighted.
I am a freedom programme facilitator and we run the programme to protect us women and our children.

Watermonster · 20/09/2020 19:42

I have mixed feelings about the Freedom Programme. The course is brilliant but because it's outsourced it depends on who runs it as they make their own rules. Locally ours is mixed sex/ self ID due to council funding rules.

The housing association who run it have turned women away or suggested they instead do the course online if the women don''t feel safe in mixed sex/ self ID courses or view gender ideology as coercive control (ie don't believe their male perpetrator has changed sex). One of the women I spoke to was told she could do the course online instead - but she really needed the support from a group- that's why the police had suggested it in the first place!

slousa · 21/09/2020 11:53

@Watermonster
I can totally relate to this as when I did it myself back in 2014 the two ladies who facilitated it had no idea how it felt to have endured domestic abuse. Plus they were not always receptive to everyone.
So I vowed to change this as everyone on my training were being forced to do the training, I was the only one who paid for myself and the only survivor on it. I have made it my business to make sure it is facilitated correctly with passion to help x
So,
I am so proud to tell you how there are, what I call, Pat Craven herself top best facilitators and trust me there is no judgement and true facilitators of the programme who do it with passion to help as many of us ladies as we can, we do it in groups where the support is immense and the judgement is NIL X
Please do pass my email address on to anyone you know [email protected]

Thelnebriati · 21/09/2020 12:48

@Watermonster

I have mixed feelings about the Freedom Programme. The course is brilliant but because it's outsourced it depends on who runs it as they make their own rules. Locally ours is mixed sex/ self ID due to council funding rules.

The housing association who run it have turned women away or suggested they instead do the course online if the women don''t feel safe in mixed sex/ self ID courses or view gender ideology as coercive control (ie don't believe their male perpetrator has changed sex). One of the women I spoke to was told she could do the course online instead - but she really needed the support from a group- that's why the police had suggested it in the first place!

The Freedom Program state that 'women must be actively welcomed to the programme', so I think they are breaking the rules by telling women they aren't welcome if they are unable to use a mixed sex group.

freedomprogramme.co.uk/docs/freedom-programme-mission-statement.pdf.

slousa · 21/09/2020 14:16

As above I have asked for the whereabouts of these groups please.
As a Freedom Programme facilitator who works closely to Pat Craven and her trainers I would like to take this further please.
[email protected]

Silencia · 22/09/2020 01:24

I don't know if it was freedom programme or something else they used for groups (I never got that support) but my local DA org went from incredibly supportive & helping me see my ex's behaviour was abusive and escalating (although not hitting me) to not replying to emails & minimising everything I had experienced with a change of personnel that unfortunately coincided with me managing to leave him.

I would love to share which org this was but my experiences since mean I try to keep my location & other info vague. My ex knows how to push buttons to either charm or seem like the most vulnerable person if he wants something from you - right until he decides it's no longer necessary to put up the facade to get it. Last I heard he had started volunteering with vulnerable people locally.

But I wondered, having heard other stories, is there some way we can take spaces back? Campaign? Make new spaces? I have a lot of reluctance about sticking my/offspring's head back above the parapet, but I am angry as hell that if women are silenced, abusers win.

Watermonster · 23/09/2020 08:43

@slousa have pM'd you

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