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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Science proves transwomen ARE women

46 replies

Toomanytears · 02/02/2020 23:13

I was reading one of the other threads that led me on to Twitter and, you know how it goes, I ended up seeing this. Can someone please explain it to me? Surely if this person has discovered that they are XX then they are in fact a woman and not as they previously believed a trans woman. Or may be, just maybe they are being a touch economical with the truth Hmm

Science proves transwomen ARE women
OP posts:
Reallybadidea · 03/02/2020 10:39

Surely if they're saying that science has proved they're a woman because they have XX chromosomes then that is a tacit admission that XX chromosomes are what defines being a woman. Not just a "feeling" after all?

Barracker · 03/02/2020 10:43

Although WAIT
I've changed my mind
I, a female human, mother of two (who btw incidentally HAS been karyotyped before) HAVE XY CHROMOSOMES (that wouldn't show on a karyotype) IN MY BRAIN!

I am OBVIOUSLY now a man.*

This phenomenon happened when I got pregnant with my son (happens to many women when they become pregnant with boys) and now I'm stuck with his DNA in my brain so I AM AN XY MAN.

Any of you who have borne sons need to think deeply and see if you're better at parallel parking now.

www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/09/bearing-sons-can-alter-your-mind

*Microchimerism does not alter biological sex.

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 03/02/2020 12:56

geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=12697&fbclid=IwAR1_8Kjkyg-4OjhmxlXhjm3uqonTFMuyqHlavSJ_VWJR05xENSHWafVXz0o

I've just seen this on fb. Can anyone make ANY sense of it? It's apparently written by a biologist. 🙄

nauticant · 03/02/2020 13:23

If trans is the phenomenon of some people having an intersex condition, then what about the vast majority of trans people who are simply bog-standard XY or XX people?

The answer to that will be that of course people can be trans people without intersex conditions. That is, the vast majority.

In that case what's this intersex discussion actually about? It's simply obfuscation.

I suspect the endpoint is to create a fiction of there being an intersex umbrella including an "intersex of the brain" which is where the gender soul lives.

SisterWendyBuckett · 03/02/2020 13:34

Any of you who have borne sons need to think deeply and see if you're better at parallel parking now.

After giving birth to my son, my parking went to pot. Previously it was brilliant. My son can't park for toffee. Does that mean my DNA got stuck in his brain when I was pregnant so he's actually a woman?

theflushedzebra · 03/02/2020 14:01

I've just seen this on fb. Can anyone make ANY sense of it? It's apparently written by a biologist. 🙄

Ha! Rest assured none of it means transwomen are women. Because they're not.

Just a waffle trying to conflate intersex conditions with trans, yet again.

Thingybob · 03/02/2020 14:42

At one time the gender identity clinics did karyotype every patient but stopped when they found no increased incidence of chromosomal abnormalities compared to the rest of society. It is therefore surprising that so many trans people now seem to self identify as 'intersex'

andyoldlabour · 03/02/2020 15:22

I am assuming this person lives in the US.
Karotype testing costs around $11,000 Shock

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29209992

"According to research at the University of Oklahoma health science centers, despite XX males exhibiting feminine characteristics, their behaviours are usually representative of masculinity in their culture."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

OvaHere · 03/02/2020 16:43

This phenomenon happened when I got pregnant with my son (happens to many women when they become pregnant with boys) and now I'm stuck with his DNA in my brain so I AM AN XY MAN.

I have three sons. I must be the manliest of men by now. Grin

CharlieParley · 03/02/2020 19:18

That FB post was discussed in this recent MN thread Biologist's take on sex seen in Fab

PlanDeRaccordement · 03/02/2020 19:26

They may be playing with the self Id language to pull the wool over eyes.

Because if you identify as agender but are biologically female for example, then you fall under their transgender woman umbrella.

So you can be both a biological female AND a trans woman. Not all trans women are MtF. “Trans” refers to transition from one gender to another. Which includes agenders who pass as cisgender and are thus transwomen. (According to their indoctrination that is.)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2020 19:42

This person is written about on other less polite websites which have an interest in this issue. A quick google may prove enlightening.

nauticant · 03/02/2020 19:50

Well.

That's all I have to say about that revelation Ereshkigalangcleg.

CharlieParley · 03/02/2020 20:44

And on the claim in that tweet, I will repeat what I said on that thread:

"The most important thing to remember about chromosomes is this:

Chromosomes are not sex. They are not the definition of sex - neither in law nor biology. They are merely a mechanism which drives sex development. The starting point to be precise. [...]

In millions of years as humanoids on this planet and over 200,000 years as a species, we have not needed to look at chromosomes to know who is male and who is female. We still do not need it now. Because if we identify someone as male or female, we do so with better than 99% accuracy.

Sex is a description of a reproductive mechanism. This mechanism involves chromosomes at the start, then the SRY gene, then hormones which lead to the development of genitals along a predictable path, which then in turn produce hormones at puberty driving further development. Even abnormalities are predictable - we know what happens if any step of this mechanism fails.

That's why the definition of sex looks at the combination of chromosomes, gonads and genitalia. (This is how sex is also defined in law and why it is defined like that.)

That's also why different species whose chromosomal mechanisms differ from that of humans still have males and females. Because sex is a reproductive category - has your body developed the anatomy that typically produces large or small gametes?

You've got the anatomy for the production of large gametes? Congratulations, you're female.

You've got the anatomy for the production of small gametes? Congratulations, you're male.

How you get here is largely irrelevant. Wether your anatomy performs as expected is also irrelevant in deciding whether you are male or female.

And don't let these constant insinuations that our chromosomes might not be what we expect fool you. As Dr Emma Hilton (FondOfBeetles) reports from her own research looking at newborns and whether their sex chromosomes are not in line with with their sex - this is incredibly rare. 0.00017% kind of rare.

So if you know you're female, there's a 99.9983% chance you don't have a Y chromosome."

As for the person who tweeted this, it's incredibly unlikely that De Chapelle Syndrome goes undiagnosed until you're middle aged (this person is almost 50). This person has previously made a number of other claims, such as having Dissociative Identity Disorder, and such like. So this may be a cry for attention from someone who appears to be experiencing mental health issues.

nauticant · 03/02/2020 22:08

In my reading elsewhere I was wondering how someone could suffer from Desert Island Discs (DID). Thanks for clearing that up.

FrogsFrogs · 03/02/2020 22:28

Thank you Charlie.

I find it fascinating and depressing that

For all of human history, all over the world
With people, and all other mammals
Everyone has known what male and female are

A small group of people want this not to be hazy

And so women are put on the back foot, against an onslaught of statements

That sex is not a thing
Male and female are a spectrum
How you feel inside supercedes biology
People warbling on about clownfish
Etc

And in a short space of time, women have to try to defend the fact that female mammals are a thing, or concede

For anyone who wasn't sure if male supremacy was a thing, this is an ongoing lesson.

Female humans are on the back foot when it comes to people stating that some male humans are female.

99.999% of the world know what female is. Why are women losing this in so many countries?

(Rhetorical question).

CharlieParley · 04/02/2020 00:39

I've just read this essay by Patricia McFadden on why we need to defend women's spaces and it speaks to your (rhetorical) question FrogsFrogs

For me, this is the core of the matter. When women occupy public spaces as persons who understand that for millennia they have been denied their inalienable rights as human beings, they begin to demand the restitution of those rights through the creation of structures within which they situate financial, technical and intellectual resources.

When women become articulate about who they are sexually and cast off the old patriarchal myths about what a woman can be and what she is not allowed to become, women become powerful and acquire the ability to say no to violence; no to unpaid labour; no to exploitation and discrimination in the name of cultural preservation. Women become persons who relate to the state in new and challenging ways, no longer waiting for men in the state to dole out a few "favours" in the name of benevolent dictatorship.

Such women become autonomous and their Movement becomes a force for the transformation of oppressive relations of power in both the public and the private spheres.

Such women are a danger to all males, regardless of how some men define themselves. Therefore, women’s spaces as politicised spaces must be occupied under the guise of "inclusion" and those women who resist such surveillance are accused of being man-haters and of acting in "exclusionary" ways the same old story we have heard for centuries.

bettybeans · 04/02/2020 00:50

The responses to that tweet are crazy. “I wish it was me!”

I’m sceptical, for many reasons. No wonder intersex people are sick fed up of this. I’ll leave it at at that.

quixote9 · 04/02/2020 04:17

As others have said: one of the rare Differences of Sexual Development. The SRY gene is the segment of DNA on (usually) a Y chromosome that actually codes for male characteristics. In a crossover event in can wind up on an X chromosome. Then an XX person develops male-looking characteristics.

Not my specialty, so I don't know (it's on wikipedia but can't be arsed to look it up right now), but I believe this is an infertile combination. Not sure.

quixote9 · 04/02/2020 04:21

Also have no idea if this particular DSD is what's happening in the case of this particular trans person. She/he is not exactly providing much in the way of facts.

Cwenthryth · 06/02/2020 22:31

Heartwarming tweet popped up for me this evening

Stardust and compost Grin

Science proves transwomen ARE women
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