Does anyone else feel isolated for their views on gender?

[MissBax]

Ended up in a debate last night with a friend who believes pansexual is a legitimate sexuality. I explained how considering there's only two sexes, bisexual covers that.
Anyhoo, I'm just always so surprised by apparently intelligent people thinking that gender is now the default position, and I explained my views on identity politics blah blah blah.
I just feel so isolated and lonely in, what I thought was, a group of educated and intelligent people.
Does anyone else feel like that? Sometimes I feel like you lot on here are the only sane people I know!

@midgebabe 😃

Accompanied by pipes

MotherofKitties - well exactly.

Such complexity to get one's head around, when in fact folk are folk just as they always have been, with their idiosyncrasies.

Imagine being 13 and trying to get your head around all of this. I am glad I am past that stage.

Aside from being a trend, pan can be a shorthand way for some people to indicate they would accept a partner with mismatch of genitals, ie they would be open to dating a trans woman with a penis or a trans man with a vagina.

Not all bisexuals would.

Correct. I date women, and I date men. I feel desperately sad for anybody who feels they were born in the wrong body, I know and am friendly with half a dozen trans men but I have no interest in having sex with trans people.

Some of the trans women I have met have been so damn incongruous that I don't feel safe around them, in the same way that coming across a stranger in the street who is acting weirdly and appears to have a mental illness or be on drugs feels dangerous to be around.

Others I just feel sorry for, because they seem lost and desperately grateful if you will treat them with human dignity.

None of them I've wanted to shag. I like my men and my women to be at least sure of themselves, and kind people. All of the trans people I've met I've either felt scared of their behaviour, or wanted to motherly protect (wanted to, not acted that way unless appropriate before anybody starts).

If I'm honest I'm still unsure if this makes me transphobic. I'd be sad if that was the case, but I'm also old enough and secure enough in myself not to feel the need to adjust who I will sleep with to please others.

Not at all. I’m retired and socialise with people mainly in my own age group. The whole damn lot of us are solidly gender critical!

Me too with all friends of the same generation as me. A couple of younger (in their 30s) relatives - both gay men - have been 'lost' because they just shut me and my partner out when we said what we thought.

I do feel isolated from my partner who is very much TWAW and went through a phase of rejecting 'she' pronouns and declaring herself pansexual. Thankfully she is back to being a lesbian again. And no she is not a woke teen she's a mature, intelligent woman.

We have had to agree not to discuss it anymore.

I do think pansexual is a legitimate sexuality and separate from bisexual.

Bisexual - attracted to men or women

Pansexual - attracted to men, women, trans men or trans women

... she says it is seen as much cooler and more socially acceptable than being gay as a teenage boy.

Exactly. Erasing homosexuality.

I work in a lamentably woke organisation

Ha, me too.

And I was literally off the Christmas card list of an old friend last year, almost certainly for my terfy views. Query over a school mum friend as well (privileged education, circumstances etc; if ‘luxury beliefs’ is a thing, she’s a case in point).

Bisexual - attracted to men or women

Pansexual - attracted to men, women, trans men or trans women

But gender can only come from the bodies of males or females. There are two sexes. Bi sexual are attracted to both.

For the person saying they wouldn't date a trans person, that doesn't mean other bi people wouldn't. It means you have an individual preference not to date people with body dysphoria. I'm straight and wouldn't date someone with any kind of body dysphoria either, be it trans, BDD, anorexia or otherwise. That doesn't make it a different sexuality.

I'm relieved to hear most of you have the positive experience of agreeing with your friends about this. It gives me hope! But also makes me feel sad that my friends are so caught up in this.
I work in health care and most of my colleagues are in agreement with me (because science), but the majority of my friends are in the uber Liberal gang and think I'm a genuine bigot!

No, but then I had a couple of mates chipping away at me so when I finally got it I knew exactly who I could talk about it with.

Just keep going, you are a chipper rather than a chippee, but soon someone will come to you and go ‘oh my god! You are the only person I know I can talk to about this’ and then they will be the next chipper.

I think it's useful to make a distinction between bisexual and pansexual, especially on dating websites.

Being pansexual makes it clear that dating trans people isn't a problem. Being bisexual doesn't mean this.

But being bisexual also doesn't mean you won't date trans people.

No, all my family bar a woman in a drumming group that used to be women only and is now led my a transwoman are gender critical.

When I told my dad there are straight men identifying as lesbians and going to lesbian groups he. was. LIVID. He also says they should not be using women's loos etc. The other men in my family all agree. And that's regardless of surgeries etc. My dad now waits right outside the women's for me when I use public toilets if we're out together. He has definitely become protective of me. I have also told him and others about the two girls who were assaulted in Fife. People are NOT happy.

I have seen bi people on social media type they want a man or a woman, not a ''hybrid'' - their words, not mine.

Oh and the teens in my family and their pals take the piss out of it all, it's a joke to them.

I work in (getting ever more) woke sector and am strongly GC. If I lose my job, so be it. I'll be sad but I'll find alternative work

It wouldn't be a catastrophe for me to be out of work. However I understand that's not the case for everyone and sympathise with those who feel unable to express their views for fear of repercussion.

Fortunately no issues as most of my friends, family and work colleagues think the idea that TWA actually W is silly and untrue and that transing kids is beyond the pale.
However a close friend, a gay man, and I do not agree although he has recently said that some of it is too extreme eg MacKinnon. We agreed to disagree as we value the friendship.
Have tried dropping a few comments in with school mums just had confused looks so far

(DD is currently adamant that there are girl colours and boy colours and is being told in no uncertain terms by me that this is nonsense)

I have met one (temp) colleague who believes TWAW, because she has a lovely transwoman friend and identifies as kind, when we directly discussed it her points were very weak though, deeply ingrained in sexism that she couldn’t really see

We leave the topic alone when she is there though, don’t want her to feel got at.

I think this is part of the problem, although I don't know what the solution is. We don't challenge the people who agree with the ideology for fear of upsetting them.

I found myself in this situation when someone mentioned to a group of us about a girl she knew who wanted to be a boy, and how the girl's school were insisting that all the staff refer to this girl as 'he'. Everyone said it was ridiculous apart from one woman (a retired teacher ) who said that the girl was a boy if she said she was.

We moved on to other subjects as this one woman seemed quite upset that we disagreed with her, even though I'd have liked to have challenged her about it and ask her how she came to have such an absurd opinion.

TRAs are never bothered about upsetting other people.

In my personal life no, bit embarrassing as I used to adhere to the 'let's just be nice' viewpoint and campaigned for trans rights so some friends I know avoid the subject as they don't realise the scales have well and truly fallen from my eyes

DC and OH also used to have the 'can't we all just be nice' view but I've been dropping in info from here and they have fully converted to GC viewpoint, must admit to being helped greatly by one DC sharing a house with a TW for a while . Family members are almost all on board except a student.

I'm careful who I broach the subject in real life as I've no wish for intimidation from trans activists but refreshingly the vast vast majority of people I encounter in RL who've thought about this are TWANW. The biggest problems are either intimidation which stops people saying anything publicly or people thinking this is so ridiculous that it will rebalance without us needing to do anything

Mostly day to day it doesn't come up and unless there's a reason like an article people are talking about I don't bring it up as lecturing people doesn't work.

Nope, I don't really know any "woke" people, to be honest, although I do know some liberal progressives, TWAW seems to be where they draw their line.
In work type situations it never comes up thankfully.
There are quite a few "pan" girls at DDs secondary school, and an asexual one, but DD rolls her eyes at it all.

I have talked to three friends recently, women roughly my own age (40s/50s) and been honest about my GC views and concerns and had them say "Yes! Thank god you feel the same way, this totally makes sense" but they had just been worrying quietly, rather than being aware of an actual feminist movement on this issue. Two if them had friends/relatives with "ROGD" DDs who identify as boys, and were in a very upset and worried state about it - I recommended Transgender Trend, and no one had heard of it.

However I probably was aware at some level that they'd be open-minded. I'd be less likely to discuss it with for example a younger school mum who'd be more likely to have the "be kind" view and no clue about sex-based feminism, judging by previous experiences!

I've also had a couple of weird "between the lines" conversations with an ed psych and another professional who I've had dealings with regarding my DD (she has other issues, nothing to do with gender). It's come up in conversation and I've suggested that I have my doubts about it and they've trotted out the official confirmation line while making hints or grimaces to suggest they have doubts too.

I certainly feel quite isolated at times. I'm a bit odd in that I move in a number of different social circles with little overlap, and I'm fairly tight lipped about my opinions in general, so I don't think people know how strong my GC views are.

I don't tend to talk about this stuff with friends or acquaintances or colleagues. My partner has to bear the brunt of listening to me, and does get a little exasperated at times with me banging on about it, but I think over the past year he's come to appreciate how complex and wide reaching the trans ideology is and he feels uncomfortable participating in discussions at his work because his colleagues are liberal / leftie / woke.

I have been fairly cautious at work, but one of my colleagues and I have had an interesting exchange in recent months. I'm sure many of the people I know would agree with me on some things and disagree on others. Other social circles I've dabbled in are very woke, hip and 'progressive' so they would not tolerate any questions as many of them are all about being non-binary, pansexual etc etc.

Someone I used to date went full on TRA and immersed herself in this ideology. I think she deleted and blocked me on social media even though I have never made any overtly critical statements but I did challenge some of the things she or her friends posted. It made me sad when I realised she was no longer on my friends list. I guess we are very different people. It's probably for the best, but still hurts a little. I hope she is well.

My poor DC have to hear me banging on about it too when I cry "Sex, not gender, SEX!" at some politician on the telly. I try not to tell them what to think but I do prioritise scientific fact in my take on things - but that's normal for me in other areas too. And if school were to try promoting genderism I would fight it.

I'm often amazed by just how very few women I know are on, or aware of, MN and/or don't seem aware of feminist arguments at all.

Mostly everyone I know is GC.
Although I was surprised someone I knew and considered to be sensible and educated said we had to use cis as the youth use it. Fuck off.

I am disappointed a few lesbians I follow (hobby related, they just happen to be lesbians) are very much transwomen are real women... all in relationships with biological women strangely. Assume none are interested in a female penis.

Im waiting for inevitable backlash of those who’ve had puberty blockers and change their minds. Or we find out the real long term consequences of them. As they dismantle the NHS who is going to pay for their lifelong hormones. Who are they going to go to when they are infertile?

I do feel lonely. All my close female friends (of varied political beliefs and backgrounds) are gender critical. But some of my wider friendship group basically think I'm a horrendous bigot.

I've been told by LGBT friends that TW simply have female brains, which I always thought was misogynistic bullshit from the 1950s, now passed off as cutting edge science.

I have a lot of sympathy for people who do struggle with gender, a tool of of the patriarchy, but I can't see how TW are women. How can a woman be an undefinable feeling distinct from biology?

But what depresses me most is the slew of high profile feminists, celebrities etc endorsing this. Roxane Gay believes TWaw. So does Margaret Atwood. I just don't understand how they can believe this.