Women cleaners have always been zero hours so why no fuss about that?

[FFSFFSFFS]

Just a musing I had today. My cleaner has had a few cases of being unwell. She came in today coughing her lungs up and I told her of course to go home (and yes I would still pay her).

And it occurred to me that the whole issue of zero hours/casual labour and the issues in terms of sick pay etc - has really only become an issue since men became more active in that type of labour market.

i.e. domestic cleaners (typically still and certainly traditionally) have been women. Normally no guaranteed hours, no sick leave, annual leave etc. And there has never been much of a hoohah about that. The historical revolution in labour rights was (correct me if I'm wrong) almost all in the traditionally male sphere of labour relations.

Also made me think of my social justice warrior friend who negotiated her cleaner down to £6 an hour.

So it just annoyed me that women have been expected to do domestic jobs with poor security but all I hear about in the zero hours debate is delivery and uber drivers (usually - but not always - men).

Am I missing something? It just irritated me.

I think most cleaners are classed as self employed, aren't they?

Yes, it’s awful and it echoes a whole history as well as a whole bunch of assumptions about women and why they work. The other demographic who are often cheated and exploited are young people.

Oh, the musings I would have if I too had a cleaner.

Well it isn't just cleaners or women's jobs that have been like this, it's self-employed labour generally, or even skilled labour that is self employed. Women might be over-represented in that group, but it's not only women by any means. Landscapers are an example, cab drivers in some places, sometimes trades though they are more likely to have a work contract, but not if it's more odd jobs.

At one time in was common in hired work as well, labourers or longshoremen etc as casual labour hoping to be hired for the day, and unionisation eventually ended a lot of that. But it didn't really tackle the self-employed casual market, for obvious reasons.

The complaint over zero hours contracts is that we seem to be moving back to a situation where employers no longer have obligations to employees, but at the same time they do have a hold over them.

Yes, I agree with you. This is not highlighted enough yet Uber/ Deliveroo gig workers are widely publicised. I imagine that this could be because many cleaners are self employed (rather than on a zero hours contract) and have to pay their own tax, NI contributions etc but it does mean no sick pay, no holiday etc.

It isn’t the same as self employed cleaners. Your cleaner can tell you they are not cleaning your house anymore but remain a self employed cleaner with other customers.

People on zero hours contracts are under contract. If they phone in sick they face disciplinary procedures from their employer.

It's the spread into new areas that has sparked concern.

No one made a fuss about labourers on building sites either, or he other trades who just used to have to queue and hope for work for that day.

So I don't think it is about sex. For both sexes have always been affected, and it is usually those with least clout (low pay, low skill manual workers) . What is changing is the expansion to higher status occupations.

The historical revolution in labour rights was (correct me if I'm wrong) almost all in the traditionally male sphere of labour relations.

Pretty sure you're wrong on that. I think women (and children) benefited. Look at the difference between Victorian working conditions for women compared to after the labour movements.

Window cleaners and gardeners (the ones who aren't permanently employed by one employer) are the same.

I've had the services, over the years, of nannies, domestic cleaners (female and male) window cleaners and gardeners. The only ones who were paid holidays and sick pay were the nannies.

The historical revolution in labour rights was (correct me if I'm wrong) almost all in the traditionally male sphere of labour relations

You are wrong.

People on zero hours contracts are under contract. If they phone in sick they face disciplinary procedures from their employer

Yes. The OP is confusing different employment structures.

Cleaners etc are self- employed. Most have a degree of flexibility about exactly when they do the work but if they don't turn up they don't get paid. Most of the people they work for will keep the work available, at least for some time, even if days are missed.

Zero hours contract employees have to turn up but there might be no work.

What others have said. Cleaners are self employed. That's a whole different situation.

I don't think most cleaners are on zero hour contracts. I wasn't, and my mate wasn't either. She did different cleaning jobs for years.

I don't think most uk cleaners are registered as self-employed, are they? Don't they mostly work for cash outside the tax and pensions system?

I don't think most uk cleaners are registered as self-employed, are they? Don't they mostly work for cash outside the tax and pensions system?

Probably. But still is not zero hours. Zero hours is when your hours are controlled by someone else and you're powerless. Most cleaners hold all the power themselves. They work for who they want, when they want.

Cleaners are self-employed. As above, they set their rates and work who they want for and when they want. With the rates my cleaner charges, I think she nets over 20k a year after allowing for sick days, bookkeeping costs etc. From speaking to her, I know she puts it all through the books and makes pension contributions.

Theyre self employed, not zero hours.

If my cleaner is ill, theres nothing I can do about it. She has no contract at all with me, so its not zero hours. The flexibility and respect works both ways.
Im pretty sure she declares everything as I pay her into bank account rather than cash, but even if she didnt, I wouldnt be that bothered and wouldnt ask. I think especially in this current climate a lot of people would starve without the black economy

She came in today coughing her lungs up and I told her of course to go home

Well of course. We don’t want the staff spreading germs.
I would tell my butler and driver exactly the same.

Basically, zero hours contracts are shit for everyone, women and men. The only people who gain are unscrupulous employers.

What the hell are you on about @Fieldofgreycorn?

I hate to say it, but zero hours contracts affect more middle class people and their children, when compared with self-employed cleaners and labourers.

With either system people with caring responsibilities, who can only work part-time or limited hours are disproportionately women.

Taxi drivers, building trades.
Predominantly male.

There was an issue in trade unions of selling out women's interests in favour of men who were seen to be do financially supporting a family.

I can't link because I speak from real life. But examples from the 60s 70s have been reported on the BBC in the past, (probably Woman's Hour). so it must be well documented.

Women did work in industry so I don't see that Labour relations responds to men's work. Work was often or usually split on sex lines which is why it was easy to sell out the women in those departments or roles.

I have a friend who is working as a home carer and I am utterly shocked at her conditions.

She does not get paid for her time between calls, except for travel expenses so in a 7 hour shift she might get paid for 4 hours. Each visit is logged via app and she is only paid for the scheduled call time, if she is allocated 15 minutes and 14 minutes in a client needs the toilet she won't be paid any extra minutes and be told off for being late for her next call.

I wonder if this is even legal, I know she should not be paid for travel time from home to her first call but surely in between calls should be classed as work time and paid accordingly. Of course, most of the women who work under these conditions and low skilled and might not know how to bring a case against the company. They are also on zero hours contracts so can be denied any hours if they cause problems.

There has been a lot in the press about couriers conditions but I have never seen any publicity about this.

For jobs like the carer job, a lot of those kinds of jobs have been converted to contract positions. The person is technically self-employed, so the "employer" has almost no responsibility to the worker. The gig economy, uber etc, works largely on that basis, but it's being used all over.

It's a problem but not the same as zero hour contracts.