Motherwell by Deborah Orr

[nettie434]

I’m looking forward to hearing extracts from Deborah Orr’s memoir on Radio 4 at 9.45 next week starting tomorrow (repeated at 12.30 am) tomorrow. The extract they have been playing is a reminder of what limited career expectations were for woman until so recently.

There was a very good review of Motherwell in the Daily Mail - I went down into the BTL comments with a bit of trepidation - all the top comments from what I could see, very supportive and positive about the challenges she faced and what she ultimately achieved

Also a review here by Janice Turner for New Statesman. Can't wait to read it.
www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/01/deborah-orr-s-motherwell-memoir-family-insights-and-dark-asides

I've been reading extracts in the Guardian.

It's very powerful writing.

in about half way through and think it’s a really good description of life in the 70’s and eighties for aspirational working class women.

I was really annoyed by a review posted on Twitter by Danni Garivelli in the Herald. Expressed exasperation about the description of narcissism applied to Orr’s mother.
I think Deborah was very well aware of the effects of narcissism on her life having had extensive therapy after her marriage ended. To have it dismissed by someone who hadn’t read the book seemingly with much comprehension is difficult for me to accept.

Reading it now. This bit is spot on about the 1970s (read especially the last sentence).

This bit is spot on about the 1970s (read especially the last sentence)

Innit though.

Gosh, I remember everything she recounts in that extract, and being too young to articulate just how wrong it all seemed.

I love Deborah Orr (RIP ) - will definitely listen to this and get her book. Thanks OP.

Surprise - that's exactly how I felt. Reading her book is bringing it all back.

OMG yes, that last line! Nail on the head.

Young woke women tell old white feminists they are out of touch. They have no idea what a toxic patriarchal culture we grew up in just a few decades ago, or how fragile the gains we have made really are.

I'm 49, I spent a childhood with Benny Hill and TOTP featuring Hot Gossip as well as Jimmy Saville. I grew up with the men fully dressed or in suits, while the women were the scantily clad window dressing. The butt of jokes and sexual innuendo. Sexual assault even.

We fought against this - I also always knew it was wrong before I could even articulate it, so how come a couple of generations later, the young woke women just don't seem to get it?

Can’t wait to buy it!

I’m 47 and grew up in a working class Scottish background and it chimes so strongly for me.

People guffawing at Carry on Films - a bunch of old men perving over teenage school girls. Brucie commanding women to “give him a twirl”. Miss World. Sexy women on cans of lager. On and on. It felt wrong but I couldn’t explain why

Mixed in with with a dying industry in a working class town with a bizarre need for conformity. Don’t get above your station.

nettie Thank you for the reminder.
Im looking forward to listening to the extracts of Deborah Orr's book, 'Motherwell' this week.
I admire her & her writing greatly.

I read the Guardian extract and I'm just horrified by the sexual assaults Deborah ensured and survived. She writes so clearly and in such matter-of-fact way, I found it heartbreaking. And infuriating, because I think the hatred levelled at women is still so evident in life now.

Looking forward to the R4 broadcast.

^ endured!!!

I concur with PP who said the end of that paragraph nails it. I’m in my late 40s. It felt like things got better in the 90s and the noughties were OK too, but I’m increasingly wondering if it only looked better from where I was standing. Once I was pregnant for the first time in 2004/5 I started to have development opportunities blocked overtly at work because I was pregnant and came across really regressive attitudes, eg DH’s boss asking me if I’d be giving up my (highly paid professional) job.

Boatyard
I’m increasingly wondering if it only looked better from where I was standing
It does look better when we're young then we start finding out there are limitations and pitfalls waiting for us around the corner.
We don't see it coming.
Women especially, don't see it coming.

The rules appear to shift for every generation, this particularly affects older women. At this point women often retreat from a positive, dynamic life.
Not all women of course.
Men are affected too but in many ways their star keeps ascending through to old age, not all men obviously.

The generational differences seems to create a gulf between mothers and their daughters and nobody cares.

It is sad so many women have such a bitter relationship with their mothers.

Deborah Orr admitted her grief of her mothers death was the realisation that she would never get to experience a bond with her mother as a true friend and ally. I look forward to reading more about this.

I’ve finished it now. I’m really struck by a sense of how little enjoyment she displays about her achievements. Her friends portray her as a really strong personality who loved beautiful things and was great company. But reading the book I got a sense of the huge struggle and the high price she paid for ‘wanting’, rather than any feeling of triumph over adversity.
I wonder how much writing it while suffering illness and post-divorce trauma had on her view of her self.

The phrase "And don't get too big for your boots young lady" embeds itself into the young brain.

So looking forward to it

They have no idea what a toxic patriarchal culture we grew up in just a few decades ago, or how fragile the gains we have made really are.
Oh yup. So true. Possibly an episode of Benny Hill with a side order of dolly-birds draped on cars somewhere during the 70s/80s should be compulsory viewing for all teenaged girls. I have tried to tell mine what it was like.

I think I need to read this book and then pass it round my daughters.

I'm 2/3s of the way through......and it is everything you look for in a biography: honest, reflective, engaging, and with humour. Likewise the recent 'another Planet' a memoir by Tracey Thorne on growing up in deepest suburbia. In contrast Debbie Harry's recent biography 'Face it' was the most boring biography ever. Just a cobbled together time line of events - with little reflection or analysis......very disappointing.

Jenni Murray's 'Dutiful daughter' is very good. Right at the end of the book Jenni realises that she has the same powerful character that her mother had, and that it is a strength not a weakness.

I've just downloaded the audiobook on the strength of this thread. I grew up in a small working class factory town in the 80's, it sounds like there will be a lot here for me to relate to.

The pun in the title is so good. I've heard the first three episodes of Siobhan Redmond reading an abridged version on R4. Strongly recommend, will seek out the book.