School policies that encourage girls to take responsibility for male behaviour

[jewel1968]

What are your thoughts on a school enforcement of skirt length policy in that skirts should be around the knee. And more specifically what would you say about a female teacher telling a 13yr old girl not to wear shorts on a school camping trip because of the impact it will have on male teachers. Not my DD but a friend's DD.

Is there a very unhelpful message here for girls i.e. that they are responsible for the behaviour of boys/men?

If you start from first principles, schools do need some uniform policy, whether it just rules out certain clothes or is very prescriptive. It is the same in nearly all offices.

You then get to the difference between the sexes. Personally I think skirts are entirely unnecessary and a choice of long or short trousers would remove the issue entirely. However, some on here would insist that girls need a skirt option.

Once you have a skirt, though, you need to have some rules around it. The idea of measuring skirts is distasteful but, equally, turning a skirt into a belt would be thought as inappropriate by most.

The ‘distracting’ to other pupils argument appears sexist but we do wear clothes for a reason and it is not just warmth. Not sure many would argue for going to work in underwear only, even on a warm day...

As long as the camping shorts aren’t daisy dukes or otherwise showing bum cheeks, that’s unreasonable. However I’m with them on the skirts. Round here the secondaries have all moved to single supplier logoed skirts (and trousers too, to be fair) and one of the reasons was the completely inappropriate ways in which students (mainly girls) were dressing - I don’t want to see camel toes at the bus stop and some of the skirts were far too short and tight. It’s a world away from wearing a cord mini with thick tights in an adult workplace.

Yes, people should be free, to a degree to wear what they want, especially women, but it’s wrong to accept teenage girls wearing such clothing knowing that it makes them objects of sexual catcalls etc from others.

My very slim DD wears a skirt that is technically in breech of uniform rules (bit on short side) but NEVER gets challenged. Her friends often do get challenged

I don't get what you are implying here. Is it that you think because your daughter is slim, she looks good in her short skirt, so doesn't get challenged, but her friends do because they aren't slim???

If there are any male teachers in the school who are sexually attracted to 13 year olds and find themselves ‘tempted’ to assault one because of the length of her shorts then you ABSOLUTELY need to report this to the school.

None of the teachers should be paedophiles. Obviously. And the message is very clear that some may be.

molto It's similar in my area too.

There's no need for anyone to have their underwear on show or outlines of their bum/genitals. I don't care if they're a boy or a girl.

The issue regarding male staff isn't that male staff are perverts, it's that it's not uncommon for a male member of staff to tell a student her skirt is too short and then she claims he's perving etc. Even if she doesn't mean it and isn't seriously making that claim, it's known that it can get a reaction and make him feel uncomfortable. In contrast, I've never had a male student do anything like that when I've challenged them for the super skinny jeans/chinos or told them. I've also never had a female student try to make me feel uncomfortable for challenging their uniform.

I've been on school trips where we've had to tell female students that we don't want to see their bum cheeks because their shorts were the ones that were cut to show bum (I hated buying shirts that year because half the arse was missing). We've had to tell male students it's not appropriate to have their jeans half way down their boxers too.
It's school. Pretending that teens don't dress in a way reflecting commonly pushed ideals of sexuality would be naïve and there's no reason for us to accept it in schools.

Knee length skirts = might as well have them wear burkhas (What?!!!)

That said, Jessica Eaton has some good articles that are relevant, eg.

"When rape myths are applied to children"

victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/09/20/when-rape-myths-are-applied-to-children/

(Extract)

She dresses provocatively and shows too much skin

This one is the top of my list because ‘dresses provocatively’ and ‘sexualised dress’ are actual real risk indicators used by professionals all over the UK to ‘assess’ girls. I have talked and written about CSE risk toolkits not being fit for purpose, as have Brown et al. (2016;2017), but here we are most of the way through 2018 and they are still being used in almost every region of the UK. As part of the risk assessment process, professionals are asked to tick whether they feel the way the child dresses is a factor for why they are being, or may be raped. In the midst of constant arguments over girls’ school uniforms, showing their knees, collarbones and bra colours through their shirts, its pretty clear that female children are being sexualised by us as professionals. The rape myth that men rape women and girls because of what they are wearing has been fiercely fought by womens’ services, rape centres, charities and even Amnesty International (2005) – but it is being used to assess ‘risk’ of children being raped. Why?

"5 ways we are encouraged to blame women and girls for being raped and abused"

victimfocus.wordpress.com/category/sexualisation/

(Extract)

Blame her appearance

This one is how we know misogyny is still alive and kicking. No one cares what men and boys were wearing when they were raped or abused. Similarly, no one cares what the man was wearing when he raped someone. No one cares what the victims of literally any other crime were wearing.

Except women and girls who are subjected to sexual violence. Then, clothing becomes central for some reason.

Was she wearing a low cut top? Was she wearing a short skirt? A push up bra? Lace knickers? A bikini? A backless dress? High heeled shoes? Knee high boots?

Apparently this is all relevant in blaming women and girls for sexual violence committed against them.

This is most curious, because the majority of all sexual offences against women and girls are committed by partners, ex-partners and family members and are usually committed within a residence. Therefore, the chances are that most women and girls are wearing pyjamas, comfortable everyday clothing, school uniforms, work uniforms, jeans, leggings, hoodies, slippers, trainers, sports bras, trackies and tee shirts when they are raped, abused or assaulted.

However, this doesn’t stop professionals from using clothing against women and girls. Even children are being blamed for their clothing choices.

Last year I worked with a local authority where their social workers felt strongly that girls wearing cropped tee shirts and showing their midriff were bringing CSE upon themselves and that took some serious work to challenge those beliefs.

In 2014, I was given access to case records of children being sexually abused and one of them said of a 12 year old girl who was being raped, ‘She prances around the house wearing knee high boots trying to seduce her Dad’.

In 2016, I read a missing person notification about a 13 year old girl who was being trafficked around the country; written by a police officer.

It stated that she must want it, because she had packed a small bag containing a change of underwear, a clean bra and make up.

Further, in many CSE risk toolkits used in local authorities and police forces all over the UK, there are items that ask what the child is wearing which include:

- Sexualised dress
- Wearing make up
- Revealing clothing

This means that the common rape myth of ‘only girls and women who wear short skirts get raped’ has actually filtered right down into social work and police assessments, not only of women but of children who can’t even consent to sex.

Does it really matter if the 12 year old is wearing a crop top and shorts at the time she is raped? Really? Isn’t she a victim of serious crime anyway?

And to that end, even adult women should not be scrutinised on their clothing at the time of rape, abuse or assault. Why would her wearing a backless dress change the offence that was committed against her?

Unless of course we are claiming that the bodies and clothing of the woman are causing the offences. Which we are. Which is why this is still happening.

Interestingly, the appearance of the woman or girl can also influence a police investigation and a trial. In my PhD thesis, I wrote about research that has shown that body type and body shape of women and girls can change the outcome of sexual violence trials. For example, if the woman or girl is perceived to be overweight or unattractive, they are more likely for their case to be dropped or to be found not guilty in a court of law. Researchers argue that this is because there is still an assumption that ‘fat’ or ‘unattractive’ women and girls don’t get raped or abused because the offence is about sexual desire.

However, that doesn’t mean that other women and girls are going to get an easier time in court. Oh no.

Research has also found that if the woman or girl is slim and perceived to be very attractive, she also has a high chance of her case being dropped or found not guilty in court. This is because there is still a perception that the attractive woman or girl must have either wanted it, or led the offender on with their appearance, because he can’t help it.

Blaming the appearance of women and girls for sexual violence committed against them is related to sexual objectification.

Objectification and sexualisation of women and girls as constant walking sex objects for men and boys to use and abuse will encourage victim blaming. When we look at girls and women like this in our society, we will still see them as sex objects even when they are raped and abused. In fact, we are not likely to see certain sexual offences as ‘real rapes’ or ‘real assaults’ at all because we will be socialised to believe that women enjoy them or want them to happen. Therefore, our thinking about sexual violence becomes about the sexuality and sexual allure of the woman or girl – rather than thinking about sexual violence as a deliberate act of violence and oppression.

I’ve written about research that has shown that when we objectify women and girls, we also dementalise them. This means that we assume they have no thoughts and feelings of their own, as they are an object to crave and use, not an equal human being. Therefore, objectification will also result in an assumption that sexual violence against women isn’t that serious and women are exaggerating or lying about it.

Ive said this many times but in my childrens school dd was told off for wearing above knee skirts as it was against uniform rules

But when she moved to incredibly tight trousers (like very many boys) she was left alone (like the boys) even though tight trousers were against uniform rules

They were shit hot on socks though...weirdly

Once got into an email discussion about socks with a teacher...at the end of it she said ‘i hope we have your support’ and i said no

The shorts thing is weird, shorts are practical, especially for camping, and what the teacher said was very odd. Skirt length is nothing new, we had the policy when I was at school, there is no advantage to your skirt being short. I don't see the issue personally, as has been said a lot of it is peer pressure rather than a real want to wear it short, if it's regulated and no one can then it takes that unwanted pressure off. It is more practical as well, and if a boy wore a short skirt I am sure they would get pulled up for their boxers showing.

MoleSmokes
The CSE is different though. No professional should ever suggest a child brought CSE upon themselves by their dress because that's disgusting, however a child who already displays more sexual behaviour (which can include dress associated with sexuality) is one factor that makes them more at risk of CSE and grooming. It's not the child that causes anything and it's not the child who is to blame, but that those people who seek to exploit children look for signs that may make it easier to groom. A child displaying sexuality beyond their years often goes hand in hand with feeling more mature and do is very vulnerable to the "cool older boyfriend" who has criminal intentions.
When we raise safeguarding concerns for some teens, their attire and behaviour form part of that.

@PositiveVibez I read the 'slim DD' comment as implying that her DD still looks child-like in her clothes (so therefore less 'distracting' than a child who has already begun to develop a woman's body). I was also a very skinny teen and never pulled up on skirt length, unlike my more developed peers.

If anyone made a comment to my DD about dressing to avoid the gaze of male teachers I would complain to the school. If the male teachers can't be trusted not to ogle children, then they shouldn't be in a position of responsibility over them

I'm assuming the doing thing is relevant in that getting one that fits around the waist its "too short"

Personally I hate uniform.. I'm.aware it's not a fashion.parade but it makes even the skin mist if girls look and feel like a sack of potatoes. Its difficult to concentrate with such I'll fitting close that you constantly have to adjust it deal with hanging off/flapping about.

School uniform never takes into account body shapes you are particularly screwed if you are gifted in the chest area.

A school should not be implying a girls clothing is distracting fir the boys and male teachers . If there are teachers you are worried about they need their 2 weeks notice

The slim thing

Stupid auto correct

Thats the difficulty i found with dds skirts sarah

Her rolling them up didnt help at all either

But even rolling didnt make them as short as some!!

And as she developed she need need to have it explained to her that all clothes looked very different on her than on her less developed friends...even at 12

In the real world wearing revealing clothes makes girls/women more attractive to paedophiles/men respectively.

Do you have any evidence for that.

OP

I'd be asking the school about their duty of care and safeguarding.

I have in the past refused to police girls' trousers, we were told to check each morning in form time. I said I didn't feel comfortable with

a) inspecting a child's bum

b) inspecting girls and not boys and

c) it was only a minority of students who didn't follow the uniform code and treating 50% or pupils badly for 2 or 3 was unfair.

|The 2-3 who were a problem were wearing leggings so not exactly difficult to spot.

I may have told another head teacher that 'girls have curves' and that if he looked at a group of squaddies the female soldiers would appear to have tighter uniforms when it was exactly the same uniform.

If an adult male is effected by seeing girls in shorts he should be no where near girls in shorts!!!

I would be taking that up with the school if I was the parent on grounds of victim blaming and red flag that there is potentially a male working at the school who the teacher has concerns about.

Should we separate out thinking about the general rules that apply to clothing ( you can get arrested for not wearing clothes ) and the rules that are applied to females and not to males?

So appropriate , professional dress tends to cover males and females. In many organisations that would mean long loose but not baggy trousers, loose but not baggy shirts with long shelves, perhaps a tie or jacket. a skirt or dress that is also long enough and loose enough would also be allowed.

it's not about forcing ill fitting and uncomfortable things as implied above. Nor does having curves mean your clothes need to be tight. Cut appropriately they won't cling round the boob and bum., they don't need to be tighter on females than males as implied above

Ohthenasty - yes that's it. She never gets challenged and some days I look and think it will happen soon. A combination of thick tights and short skirt is not distracting it would seem.

I find it interesting that schools ban skirts above the knee until the girls are in a PE lesson. Obviously PE teachers can cope with girls in shorts.

feetfreckles

I think you misunderstood me, clothes that fit look different on different frames. Trousers that fit a female figure will normally have a narrower waist than hips, which some head teachers seem to have a problem with.

It is the message that somehow a 13 yr old is responsible for how male teachers night react I think is most troubleshooting. FWIW there is no evidence these male teachers are a problem but the skewed view of one female teacher.

Troubling not troubleshooting

Got it sash, sorry,

I do also think it can be difficult to get reasonable fitting women's clothes

@sashh

No evidence, other than being a man and knowing men.

But, I guess you're right, I'll send my 13 year old out in underwear. Sure shell be fine.....

I’ll probably get shot down for this but ultimately these young ladies are still deemed children and often look way older than they are. I sat in an assembly and the majority of the girls had skirts so short they couldn’t sit in a chair and move without leaving anything to the imagination. I personally think skirts should be knee length. They aren’t out on the town trying ‘to pull’ or go out clubbing. They are children at school.

They aren’t out on the town trying ‘to pull’ or go out clubbing. They are children at school

So see through shirts are ok
Blazers that are hot and sweaty but get kept on even In summer because of said see through shirts. They are Made to wear tiny skorts in pe, denied the one style if trouser that even stands a chance of fitting ( skinny trousers ) and are used in many schools as behaviour management in their seating positions, but suddenly a skirt length is a problem?

Maybe if uniform.acknowledged the female body and could be adapted to make the girls feel like they should actually be there and not just an after thought they may have more confidence and a sense if belonging and not feel that the only way to have any control over anything is to wear these short skirts. And if more was done to combat the harassment girls face at school they might feel like they are worth something and not only good for showing their knickers...

Just a thought

I don't think those things are really mutually exclusive. Standards of dress that are respectful towards people are also about maintaining an environment that puts the focus on things other than sexual attractiveness or which sees harassment as inappropriate.

As far as uniforms that are poorly designed, yes, that can be a problem but it can also be addressed. I don't think consistency means that we should expect the same thing in different settings, PE shorts might well be shorter than skirts n the classroom, or cover more than swimsuits on a trip to a pool.

As far as the students themselves, I expect some will always push against the boundaries, that is just normal for teens. Sometimes they do it for the sake of rebelling, or other times because they are not mature enough to understand why they are there. It doesn't mean the boundaries are wrong though.